Disclosure of lawfully concealed firearm on a traffic stop

[csmkersh]

Powderman, your advice may be great for Washington, but not for all states including Texas.

As I and others have already stated, since I'm licensed to carry concealed, by Texas law I must show my CHL when carrying. Now, if by some strange accident, I'm not carrying, I don't need to show you my CHL. That the you learn about it when you run a 10-28, 10-29, is immaterial; I've complied with the law and you don't have PC to search my vehicle. To do so will bring about a call to the I.A. squad. And the stop watch starts to see if you abuse the Terry Stop rules.

Also, as stated, rifles and shotguns, while weapons, aren't regulated and are perfectly legal just about anywhere regardless whether they're loaded or not and the law does not require I inform you about them.

Only the state may regulate possession of weapons, not counties or municipalities. Texas Local Government Code allows municipalities to require unlicensed person to go armed under certain situations, but municipalities may not interfere with person licensed to carry, period. This is further amplified under Texas Penal Code 30.06, Criminal Trespass.


The OP, Jeff D, failed to state where he's located so it's impossible to say what really applies to him.

​

 

[TexasRifleman]

WHY is everyone of the opinion that EVERYTIME you come into contact with a cop, that the following applies:

1. We are all JBT's...
2. We want to trample on your rights...
3. We would think nothing of stealing your belongings...
4. We will tune you up if you protest...

Why is everyone of the opinion that EVERYTIME you come into contact with LE that nothing bad will happen?

No one is saying all cops are bad, no one is saying things will always end badly.

But, the Constitution gives us certain rights, why would we NOT use them?

It's not cop bashing.

Right here in Texas for example we had a District Attorney in Houston give the Police Chief, and then the cop on the beat, specific instructions to arrest anyone carrying a concealed handgun without a permit, even though a new law had recently passed making it a perfectly legal thing to do.

Would it have made the cops "JBT's" to do that? Not really, they were just following orders from both their chief and the DA.

Was it still wrong? Of course it was. In fact it was that DA's mouth that caused the Texas legislature to reword the statute even stronger, leaving that DA with no alternatives but to reverse his instructions to the Houston PD.

That's not cop bashing, that's an absolute fact. It happened.

Just a week or 2 ago we read of an officer disarming a woman and then shooting himself in the leg WITH HER GUN in the name of "officer safety". That's not cop bashing, it's a fact.

Why would we all rush out to volunteer information that isn't required of us when there is no benefit to either party?

LE doesn't benefit by knowing I have a gun in the glove box during a speeding ticket stop, or by knowing that I have 14 legal machine guns in the trunk. Why tell them?

 

[anarchris]

when I get pulled over I show them my CCW badge!

 

[csmkersh]

And if I were still a Sheriff's deputy and you did that, you be in the Bexar County cooler for impersonating an officer.
​

 

[Kleanbore]

I've found out the hard way that to give your consent to search is a BAD path.

Wyocarp, I haven't heard anyone here suggest that one give consent to search. My CCW instructor's recommendation is precisely the same as that of Powderman:

So: if you have a carry permit, then BEFORE you hand them ANYTHING, or reach for ANYTHING, state the following: "Before I reach for my license, I want you to know that I am legally armed, with a permit, and I have the firearm on my person. What do you want me to do?"

We do not have a disclosure requirement in Missouri. Nor is it necessary to have a concealed carry endorsement (read: CCW permit) to have a weapon anywhere in the car, even concealed on the person. That does not apply to dangerous felons.

The Missouri Highway Patrol's recommendation regarding a stop is as follows: stay in the vehicle if possible, with both hands on the wheel; do not reach to an area where your firearm is concealed without first advising the officer that you have a firearm in your vehicle or on your person.

I'll add this (personal opinion). I'm not too interested in reaching for my driver's license and insurance card without similarly advising the officer. The officer's computer, if he has checked it, will have told him that I have a concealed carry endorsement. He or she is in that "jungle out there" and may be a little jumpy. I'd rather not take the chance. I'm not suggesting that the officer would not be well trained and professional, but how do I know whether I happen to look something like someone armed and dangerous who is on the loose?

Powderman alluded to SCOTUS and case law. Here's a lay report on an applicable SCOTUS decision: if your car is stopped for any reason and the officer has probable cause, he or she can, without a warrant, search the passenger compartment and the glove compartment .

A traffic stop can lead to a drug search with probable cause (odor, etc.). Perhaps more relevant, a flawed witness report, coincidence (your Buick Skylark looked like that Pontiac Tempest of the same color ) could lead the officer to believe he had probable cause to look for illegal substances, stolen goods, etc. Evidence so discovered may not stand up, but it would seem to this layman that if he had something to go on a warrant would not be required.

Perhaps someone more qualified can comment on that.

 

[Treo]

1. FIRST AND FOREMOST, IF YOU DON'T WANT TO GET PULLED OVER, DON'T BREAK THE LAW.

Or get stopped on a pretext stop, or be in the wrong neighbor hood at the wrong time of night, or be one of those people they like to profile.

So: if you have a carry permit, then BEFORE you hand them ANYTHING, or reach for ANYTHING, state the following: "Before I reach for my license, I want you to know that I am legally armed, with a permit, and I have the firearm on my person. What do you want me to do?"

Why? If state law doesn’t require that I do so why should I take your advice?

If for some reason you have a firearm without a permit, ensure that it is boxed up, and placed to prevent ready access to the operators of the vehicle. It must be unloaded, also. Store ammunition separately.

See question above, Given that your advice here is dead wrong for my state why should I listen to anything else you have to tell me? In Colorado I am completely legal to carry a weapon concealed in my vehicle w/out a permit and w/ no requirement to disclose

 

[Tamlin]

The California Law which "authorizes" probable cause to see if a gun is loaded --

Yeah . . . I'm surprised that has not been shot down yet. No statute can "authorize" its way around the constitution. We are protected from unreasonable searches and seizures - plain and simple. This CA statute which says IF there is a gun, THEN we automatically get to search it to see if it is loaded - they are saying that the presence of a gun automatically equals probable cause to search. This is like saying that because we know drug dealers frequent parks and carry their drugs in backpacks, that therefore, if you are seen in a park with a backpack, we have automatic probable cause to search your backpack. Hey, it's written in the statute! Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Just because there MIGHT be criminal activity afoot doesn't give any cop probable cause to search. Thats called Reasonable Suspicion - and without more, there is no probable cause. California's laws are going to undergo a major revamping after Heller anyway - Heller says trigger locks are a functional disarmament - so are laws that prevent carrying a loaded gun. What is the difference between taking several seconds to take off a trigger lock, and taking several seconds to load your gun? Nothing. If you can't carry your gun loaded, you are functionally disarmed. I predict this issue will be coming through the courts very soon.

 

[Kleanbore]

If state law doesn’t require that I do so why should I take your advice [to say to the officer] "Before I reach for my license, I want you to know that I am legally armed, with a permit, and I have the firearm on my person. What do you want me to do?"?

My reason is simple. The officer is a human being and is in a high-stress situation. If he mistakes my reaching for my license as an attempt to draw a gun, the results could be disastrous for all involved. Anything that may reduce the stress level would be helpful in that situation.

You have no way of knowing what he may have just heard on his radio about, for example, someone in a car like yours who is reported to have just shot his spouse.

 

[Powderman]

I don't even know why I reply to these posts anymore.

There are some of you that appear to be so scared--or so hostile--toward law enforcement that it is actually pitiful.

And let's get one thing straight--my jurisdiction resides in the State of Washington. Yes, I am familiar with Washington State law.

(And no, if you're NOT carrying, why inform ANYONE? Come on, CSM Kersh, a bit of common sense, please???)

That being said, here's the skinny:

If your State does not require that you inform, you don't have to.

If your State requires that you advise or display your CCW permit, you should do so.

And for all of you chairborne rangers out there, you REALLY don't want the cop doing your traffic stop to see that you have a gun if you haven't had the good common sense to inform them. Tain't pretty, I'll tell you that much.

So, go ahead! Let me find out myself that you're armed. Don't tell me about it. Let me see it by chance. Go ahead--give me another story to tell, and you can go home with the VERY bad memory of what happened. Go right ahead.

 

[csmkersh]

Powderman, do we get cheese with your whine?
​

 

[Treo]

If he mistakes my reaching for my license as an attempt to draw a gun, the results could be disastrous for all involved.

True, but the best way around that is to have your wallet in your hand ( on the wheel ) when the cop walks up to your car.

The only time I would proactively notify is if I were asked to step out of the car. I would never utter any words that sound remotely like "I have a gun" I'd tell the cop " I need to give you this before I get out " and hand him my permit. He'll figure it out.

Now on to why I don't inform, I live in a pretty anti jurisdiction most of the CSPD does not like armed citizens. Why should I hand them a reason to hassel me?

 

[Powderman]

Powderman, do we get cheese with your whine?

Check your PM.

 

[Jeff F]

If for some reason you have a firearm without a permit, ensure that it is boxed up, and placed to prevent ready access to the operators of the vehicle. It must be unloaded, also. Store ammunition separately.

This also depends on what state you live in.

 

[Kleanbore]

I would never utter any words that sound remotely like "I have a gun"

I think that is very good advice indeed. My CCW instructor said exactly the same thing.

He also recommended using wording that is almost exactly the same as what Powderman recommended.

He described what happened in three traffic stops in which he was involved. All just a little different, but all with satisfactory outcomes.

 

[csmkersh]

And no, if you're NOT carrying, why inform ANYONE? Come on, CSM Kersh, a bit of common sense, please???)

As I stated originally, while not required to tell the officer anything if I'm licensed but not carrying, some officers might get their panties in a wad when they run wants and warrants against my TDL and learn I'm licensed to carry and didn't say a word. I also mentioned that under Texas law a person who is not licensed may legally possess a handgun in their vehicle and are not required to tell the officer and nothing comes back on the W&W query.

The lack of "common sense" in this case is by a law that, as a licensed individual, I'm required to tell the officer but not if I'm unlicnesed.

​

 

[General Geoff]

And for all of you chairborne rangers out there, you REALLY don't want the cop doing your traffic stop to see that you have a gun if you haven't had the good common sense to inform them. Tain't pretty, I'll tell you that much.

So, go ahead! Let me find out myself that you're armed. Don't tell me about it. Let me see it by chance. Go ahead--give me another story to tell, and you can go home with the VERY bad memory of what happened. Go right ahead.

Sounds like you're itching for an excuse to give someone a bad day. Not very professional.

Why is my being armed, any of your business? I'm not breaking any law by being armed, therefore it's none of your concern, whether you discover it or not. It's tantamount to asking if I wear boxers, briefs, or go commando.

 

[Kleanbore]

There is NEVER anything to be gained by voluntarily giving up your Fourth Amendment rights.

TexasRifleman, according to some legal textbooks on the subject, there is an "automobile exclusion" that SCOTUS has defined in their interpretation of the Fourth Amendment. The officer needs no warrant to search your car. Goes back to 1925 and has since been reaffirmed and in fact expanded twice. Requires probable cause, which some texts say is provided if there has been a traffic violation. So, in my car, I effectively have no "Fourth Amendment right" to "give up." I'm sure that Powderman is schooled in this subject.

Not that my voluntarily disclosing that I am legally possessing a firearm would give up any rights, anyway.

YOU may believe that you are 100% guilt free but it only takes one bad cop, one mistake, and you could be in a world of trouble.

Yep. That's been the case for centuries.

 

[SCKimberFan]

If stopped by police for a traffic violation and the police officer asks if I have any drugs or weapons in my vehicle, I know that it is illegal to lie to them and I can be charged with obstructing.

From the OP: no mention of a CCW or CWP or CHL or whatever. Where I live we must disclose if we have a CWP and are armed. If you lie to a LEO, you have just opened the biggest can of worms you could have. I agree with Treo, say nothing, but give them your permit if you have one and are carrying. If you can have a gun concealed in your vehicle, as you can do here, then I would answer only when asked specifically, as the OP posted.

Here's a lay report on an applicable SCOTUS decision: if your car is stopped for any reason and the officer has probable cause, he or she can, without a warrant, search the passenger compartment and the glove compartment.

Prove this.

What do you mean ".. and has probable cause"? A traffic stop in NOT PC for anything more than him looking into the vehicle.


I'm sorry Powderman, I did NOT see any cop-bashing until your post.

Also as Treo posted, there are numerous reason for a traffic stop. Here in the South, we have various checkpoints for DUIs and things of that nature. Even if you are not doing anything wrong, you are required to stop.

 

[General Geoff]

Kleanbore, the case law on searching vehicles without a warrant is very sketchy. Yes a cop can search a car on probable cause alone without a warrant, however if the vehicle's owner locks all the doors and closes all the windows before they step out of the car, you would need to break into the car to get into it, and if you find nothing, you (or your department) are legally liable for the damage caused.

The vehicle exemption also does not apply to locked luggage containers, according to the Supreme Court. So if there's a locked suitcase or other container, you CANNOT unlock that without a warrant. At least, not legally.

 

[Bubba613]

If a police officer thinks that a citizen with a valid carry permit is a threat to him then he needs his head examined. He would be the last person I would ever inform (in my state there is no requirement to inform). The weapon stays concealed and it isn't anybody's business.
I disagree that police can search your car for any reason they feel like. Letting them do so is giving up rights under the 4th.

 

[Kleanbore]

Why is my being armed, any of [the officer's] business? I'm not breaking any law by being armed, therefore it's none of [his] concern, whether [he] discover it or not.

First, this is not a legal opinion.

It would seem to me that if the officer has not yet received a negative reply to his query on whether there are any outstanding warrants against you, or if you happen fit the general description of someone in the area who is wanted, he needs to consider the possibility that he may end up arresting you. Seems to me that until he knows otherwise, his understanding that he will likely not have to escalate the situation would be to your great advantage.

I know several police officers and former police officers. All are very good people. None have any concerns about citizens carrying concealed. One is a dispatcher. It is amazing how many routine traffic stops turn into drug busts, arrests of wanted people, etc.

 

[jeff_d_148]

I live in Florida, and just like most cities in the state, the one where I live is a crime infested cess pool. Every working class neighborhood is in decay and infested with drugs and criminals. I agree that the best solution is to avoid getting pulled over in the first place and I make every effort to follow all traffic laws so as not to give a police officer a reason to pull me over. I have not been pulled over or received a traffic citation in 11 years. I have never been arrested for anything, and I served in the Army for 8 years. But sometimes things happen that are out of your control. I drive to work at night and my tail light might go out. A vehicle fitting the description of mine may have been used in a crime.

Any police officer that pulls me over in my neighborhood has one intent and one intent only, to get inside my vehicle to look for weapons or drugs. They are not my friend and I am not their friend. Do I take it personally? No. They have a job to do and that is fine. Does that make me hostile towards LEOs because as a legally armed law abiding citizen I want to protect my rights?

I simply want to know what a good response is to the inevitable question I will one day be faced with, "Do you have any drugs or weapons in your vehicle?" I do not want to lie and say no. I also do not want to say yes because I do not want to go through the hassell of having them run my CWP and run my criminal history to see if I have ever been convicted of a felony. So is saying, "I do not have anything illegal in my vehicle" enough?

I know about locking my vehicle as I exit, responding only to questions asked and never volunteering information, and NEVER consenting to any search of my vehicle under any circumstances.

 

[wyocarp]

WHY is everyone of the opinion that EVERYTIME you come into contact with a cop, that the following applies:

1. We are all JBT's...
2. We want to trample on your rights...
3. We would think nothing of stealing your belongings...
4. We will tune you up if you protest...

Well, for starters, which one of the above four are incorrect?

1. FIRST AND FOREMOST, IF YOU DON'T WANT TO GET PULLED OVER, DON'T BREAK THE LAW.

That is the biggest load of crap I've read on here! Getting pulled over doesn't always have anything to do with breaking the law. I'm not sour, bitter, or angry about the speeding tickets I've recieved (although driving as much as I do in Wyoming it is bound to happen), what upsets me are events like having spent time in the back of a patrol car in cuffs just because I said yes to having weapons in my vehicle which was perfectly legal.

You don't really want to know my opinion of cops.

 

[General Geoff]

2. We want to trample on your rights...
3. We would think nothing of stealing your belongings...
4. We will tune you up if you protest...

2. That is the definition of your job, to infringe on the rights of those who violate the rights of others.
3. Ever been to a police auction? Yeah.
4. Generally true.

 

[Kleanbore]

The vehicle exemption also does not apply to locked luggage containers, according to the Supreme Court. So if there's a locked suitcase or other container, you CANNOT unlock that without a warrant. At least, not legally.

True fact, General, as I interpret the 1991 ruling. Glove box is not a "container ", however. In addition, as you may be aware, the exception does not empower the officer to search the driver's person.

I disagree that police can search your car for any reason they feel like. Letting them do so is giving up rights under the 4th.

Disagree? Doesn't matter, Bubba. The Supreme Court makes that call. Perhaps you mean you don't like it.