Disclosure of lawfully concealed firearm on a traffic stop
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General Geoff
Member
If an attorney is required to give a definition for probable cause, then perhaps all law enforcement officers should require licensure from their state bar association.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
I'd be OK with that.
Zach S
Member
Powderman, evidently I don't read these posts the same as you.
I inform the LEO of my CHP and handgun because I'm required to do so. For the most part, it hasnt been a problem.
However, in one case, I sat on the side of the road for an hour while my car got tossed. You see, that one LEO used my CHP as PC to search my car for "illegal weapons."
For the most part, people are reasonable, and only a few are *******s. Last time I looked, LEOs were people. You never know when one is going to be an *******, and have you sitting on the side of the road for an hour in cuffs even though you haven't done anything remotely illegal.
I inform the LEO of my CHP and handgun because I'm required to do so. For the most part, it hasnt been a problem.
However, in one case, I sat on the side of the road for an hour while my car got tossed. You see, that one LEO used my CHP as PC to search my car for "illegal weapons."
For the most part, people are reasonable, and only a few are *******s. Last time I looked, LEOs were people. You never know when one is going to be an *******, and have you sitting on the side of the road for an hour in cuffs even though you haven't done anything remotely illegal.
Treo
member
To The O.P.
The last thing you want to do is lie to a cop. Look up the statute that covers CC in Fla. I would just about bet that you are required to produce your license on demand. Do you want to argue W/ the judge about weather or not "Do you have any weapons in the vehicle ?" is a demand?
Best thing to do (IMO) if you are asked; say nothing and hand him your permit. He'll get the idea.
If he asks where its at tell him if he wants it tell him step by step exactly what you're doing and ( if possible) give him the entire holster.
If he says one more word about drugs say " Officer I do not consent to any searches" if he pushes the issue ask to speak to a lawyer and shut up.
The last thing you want to do is lie to a cop. Look up the statute that covers CC in Fla. I would just about bet that you are required to produce your license on demand. Do you want to argue W/ the judge about weather or not "Do you have any weapons in the vehicle ?" is a demand?
Best thing to do (IMO) if you are asked; say nothing and hand him your permit. He'll get the idea.
If he asks where its at tell him if he wants it tell him step by step exactly what you're doing and ( if possible) give him the entire holster.
If he says one more word about drugs say " Officer I do not consent to any searches" if he pushes the issue ask to speak to a lawyer and shut up.
I'm not at all sure what you mean. Only an attorney can properly provide legal advice. Defining for Mr. Kimberfan when a policeman may or may not have probable cause could well be construed as providing legal advice. I'm not qualified. Some current legal sources appear to say a traffic violation provides probable cause; others appear to say it does not. Requires more education than I have.
Policemen do not have to be licensed to practice law, and it would be ridiculous to suggest that they should. However, you can be sure that they (most of them, at least in good departments) are trained in, and examined on their knowledge of, the aspects of the law that apply to their duties. They'll know what they should and should not search and under what circumstances. They obviously won't know tort law or contract law, or be able to define express vs. implied warranties, or liability for consequential damages, unless they have in fact studied law.
Kimberfan also demanded that I prove to him that there is an exception to the Fourth Amendment search warrant requirement when it comes to automobiles. If he doesn't believe that and if he intends to rely on his understanding of the subject he needs to consult an attorney. Otherwise he can research the subject himself: Carroll v. United States (267 U.S. 132), 1925; United States v. Ross, 456 U.S. 798, 1982; and California v. Acevedo (500 U.S. 565), 1991. I do not mean that to be rude. I've read not only the summaries but also parts of a legal textbook on the subject, and I'm far from comfortable in making any definitive statements on this.
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By the way, there's a pretty good, but by no means exhaustive, discussion of the subject of traffic stops on page 33 of Massad Ayoob's new book, The Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry.
I won't paraphrase.
I strongly recommend this book.
I won't paraphrase.
I strongly recommend this book.
General Geoff
Member
Tell that to the multiple officers who have detained me for doing nothing illegal (open carrying), and claiming that it was in fact illegal when it is not in my state.
jeff_d_148
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Zach -- "However, in one case, I sat on the side of the road for an hour while my car got tossed. You see, that one LEO used my CHP as PC to search my car for "illegal weapons." -- Exactly the type of situation I am trying to avoid. Even if they do not search my vehicle they can still keep me there while they run my criminal history or CWP.
HANDLOADER
member
5th amendment
Lat time I checked we have the right to remain silent.
Lat time I checked we have the right to remain silent.
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No, I mean as a matter of legal fact police do not have unrestricted right to search your vehicle for any reason they see fit.
This is why they ask to do it. If they had the power to do so, they wouldn't bother asking, they would just do it. The fact that they ask is evidence enough they do not have that power.
A friend of mine was driving through LA late at night and was stopped on some pretense or other. They asked permission to search the vehicle and he told them no. They threatened to get a warrant to do so he told them go right ahead. They never produced a warrant, never searched the vehicle and he drove away, albeit some 2 hours later.
Again, as to the question "do you have drugs or weapons in the vehicle" the answer is "...." You have no obligation to answer the question.
Know the laws in your state. Know your rights (4th, 5th, prerequisits for a Terry, what constitutes PC, etc.). Give nothing that is not required by law. Never, NEVER, NEVER give permission for a search. If he asks, it's because he doesn't have the right. As soon as it turns into something beyond a traffic stop, get his/her name and number. "Am I under arrest?" is a perfectly valid answer to any question. "Am I free to go?" is a great answer also. If they have cause, you'll be getting orders - not requests. The cop is not your friend.
Oh please!!! you guys are making a mountain out of a molehill.
CSMKERSH, I was joking about the ccw badge, lighten up!
It is just plain and simple courtesy to notify LE of your ccw during traffic stops.
unfortunately I live in SF so I do not have a CA ccw, but I do have a NV ccw and have been pulled over in NV, it was not a big deal.
If I was carrying illegally in CA, I would keep my mouth shut and not get pulled over in the first place.
Why is everyone getting the undies wrappped sooo tight for anyway?
CSMKERSH, I was joking about the ccw badge, lighten up!
It is just plain and simple courtesy to notify LE of your ccw during traffic stops.
unfortunately I live in SF so I do not have a CA ccw, but I do have a NV ccw and have been pulled over in NV, it was not a big deal.
If I was carrying illegally in CA, I would keep my mouth shut and not get pulled over in the first place.
Why is everyone getting the undies wrappped sooo tight for anyway?
Excellent advice! I might add that you should know the laws of any state in which you are traveling. The fact that Missouri does not require disclosure does not relieve a disclosure requirement in some other states that honor the Missouri concealed carry endorsement.
I can't argue with that, either. I've never had it happen.
However, if your car fits the description of another that was just seen leaving the scene of a robbery, I'm not at all sure that declining a request for permission would actually prevent the search from taking place.
All of the police officers with whom I associate agree with that.
It would seem to me that an officer who has seen your permit would be less likely to perceive a threat than one who sees a bulge and does not know that you are legally armed. It would seem to me that the lower the level of perceived threat, the better for all.
Remember, only you know your intentions. If you happen to fit the description of a wanted person who is thought to be armed and dangerous, the officer has no way of knowing that you are not a threat until he has done at least some investigation. It would seem to me that your providing the information that you are in fact legally armed--which also informs him that, as of the date the permit was issued, you were a law abiding citizen--would reduce the probability of his believing that he may have to take unpleasant action to prevent you from reaching for your weapon. That's the way I want it to be.
I leave that to experienced current and/or former LEOs to judge.
If that were the case then I think there would be PC and there would be no request for permission.
In any case, a clear unequivocal statement of "I do not give permission to search to my vehicle" would retain your rights in that scenario. They may do it anyway but if later it was ruled there was no PC then anything they find will be inadmissable. If you give permission then it wont matter whether the search was lawful or not.
Seems reasonable....
That's consistent with my lay understanding. I'm not qualified to judge, but it would seem unlikely that if they find "anything"--say, stolen goods--that it would be found that probable cause was lacking. Now, maybe if they come upon an open container...
Moot point for me.
Riss
Member
Think its been covered but will restate. NEVER lie to a JBT or LEO. Keep your hands where I can see them. Hand over your CCW permit along with your Drivers Lic so I do not get stupid when you have to reach over to the glove box to get your insurance card and your Kimber CDP pops out from under your shirt. NO ONE, and I do mean no one likes surprises. ESPECIALLY THE POLICE.
wyocarp
Member
I'm not sure that is still valid in some states. IL, CA, DC....
evan price
Member
Wow, the can of worms again, with the usual suspects.
Most states have a requirement to notify if you are CCW and armed. If so, you must promptly notify.
As for a CCW being PC to search, no it is not.
However there is the Terry search, which allows an officer to search and "grab" areas in the car for weapons, as part of a Terry pat-down.
Let me say this: Cops are people too. 90% of the problems people have with a profession stems from the bottom 10% of the people in that profession. That includes cops, plumbers, teachers, whatever.
Every cop I know would rather do anything else than initiate a traffic stop somewhere for a silly reason unless they are specifically assigned to do something like drug interdiction or traffic.
If you go out of your way to act like a jackass then it is entirely possible that any tendacy of a police officer to #1 not be lenient in terms of the offense you were stopped for and #2 find some other reason for why you are acting like a jackass, will be front and center.
If you are stopped for a tag light out at 3am on a county highway, probably he's checking for DUI's. Want to make his night interesting? Say nothing, roll your windows up, ask for a lawyer right away. You'll both have an interesting night- you may beat the rap but you won't beat the ride. And the impound lot won't care if you were "unjustly detained"; you still have to pay towing and storage to get your car back.
No, no, really, listen to street warriors like Treo. He'll be there at 4am when you need bail money. Right?
Most states have a requirement to notify if you are CCW and armed. If so, you must promptly notify.
As for a CCW being PC to search, no it is not.
However there is the Terry search, which allows an officer to search and "grab" areas in the car for weapons, as part of a Terry pat-down.
Let me say this: Cops are people too. 90% of the problems people have with a profession stems from the bottom 10% of the people in that profession. That includes cops, plumbers, teachers, whatever.
Every cop I know would rather do anything else than initiate a traffic stop somewhere for a silly reason unless they are specifically assigned to do something like drug interdiction or traffic.
If you go out of your way to act like a jackass then it is entirely possible that any tendacy of a police officer to #1 not be lenient in terms of the offense you were stopped for and #2 find some other reason for why you are acting like a jackass, will be front and center.
If you are stopped for a tag light out at 3am on a county highway, probably he's checking for DUI's. Want to make his night interesting? Say nothing, roll your windows up, ask for a lawyer right away. You'll both have an interesting night- you may beat the rap but you won't beat the ride. And the impound lot won't care if you were "unjustly detained"; you still have to pay towing and storage to get your car back.
No, no, really, listen to street warriors like Treo. He'll be there at 4am when you need bail money. Right?
Terry does not give unrestricted power to an LE to make searches.
I think we all understand that 3AM on a dark road is a special situation. I would still not consent to any searches, although I would be cognizant of the officer's concerns. Informing him of my weapon when not required is not part of his concerns.
I think we all understand that 3AM on a dark road is a special situation. I would still not consent to any searches, although I would be cognizant of the officer's concerns. Informing him of my weapon when not required is not part of his concerns.
I really do not understand why some must take every opportunity possible to cop bash... But, it is what it is.
Some of you may find the following helpful in sorting out the "generic" answers to questions posted:
http://www.fletc.gov/training/progr...amendment-transcripts/mobile-conveyance.html/
Treo's advice... that right, I said Treo's advice, is sound, albeit curter than I recommend.
Actually, I recommend, generically:
1. Setting the stage for a positive encounter, by rolling down windows, having documents in hand, turning on interior lighting, turning off everything else, hanging up the cell phone, etc.
2. Being polite.
3. Notifying of the fact that you are armed. Most officers consider that a courtesy extended by good guys to good guys. I understand that it isn't required everywhere and that many don't have to do it. Besides being a useful tactic for getting on the officer's good side, it is sound advise should you have to move about. If you have to exit the vehicle for whatever reason, I strongly recommend advising that you are armed. The benefit of any doubt after the fact in instances of... misunderstandings will go to the officer.
4. Maintaining you rights though understanding what they are and exercising them. I not recommend asking for a lawyer out of the box. It is not something most people do, most people being good guys, and will potentially cause complications in clearing the scene in as timely a manner as possible. It is also a tactic in use by some bad guys, who don't know their rights as well as they'd like to represent; there is no right to legal counsel at the stage we are discussing. A certain segment of officers will pick up on that and want to probe further where other wise they might not; the complication I referred to.
5. Being truthful.
6. Signing any ticket, agreeing to any warning, etc, the end goal being getting on your way to decide any legal and social options at a later time.
Best,
Erik
Some of you may find the following helpful in sorting out the "generic" answers to questions posted:
http://www.fletc.gov/training/progr...amendment-transcripts/mobile-conveyance.html/
Treo's advice... that right, I said Treo's advice, is sound, albeit curter than I recommend.
Actually, I recommend, generically:
1. Setting the stage for a positive encounter, by rolling down windows, having documents in hand, turning on interior lighting, turning off everything else, hanging up the cell phone, etc.
2. Being polite.
3. Notifying of the fact that you are armed. Most officers consider that a courtesy extended by good guys to good guys. I understand that it isn't required everywhere and that many don't have to do it. Besides being a useful tactic for getting on the officer's good side, it is sound advise should you have to move about. If you have to exit the vehicle for whatever reason, I strongly recommend advising that you are armed. The benefit of any doubt after the fact in instances of... misunderstandings will go to the officer.
4. Maintaining you rights though understanding what they are and exercising them. I not recommend asking for a lawyer out of the box. It is not something most people do, most people being good guys, and will potentially cause complications in clearing the scene in as timely a manner as possible. It is also a tactic in use by some bad guys, who don't know their rights as well as they'd like to represent; there is no right to legal counsel at the stage we are discussing. A certain segment of officers will pick up on that and want to probe further where other wise they might not; the complication I referred to.
5. Being truthful.
6. Signing any ticket, agreeing to any warning, etc, the end goal being getting on your way to decide any legal and social options at a later time.
Best,
Erik
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