Terminated Co-Worker/Guns/Restraining Order

[Master Blaster]

Recently a co-worker was terminated from my place of employment due to threats against fellow co-workers. He’s a very intimidating guy, having a major attitude. He made many threats and many people are afraid. The company has also hired security guards (unarmed) since his termination.

He recently became interested in guns and people know that I enjoy shooting on the weekends he came to me for advise and I guided him in regards to all aspects of obtaining a handgun in California Legally. He did purchase a couple of Glocks.

I was asked by a Manager who I also consider a friend to put this information in writing & I did so for the company’s records

First off Never trust your employer, the manager is not your friend, especially if he is asking you to put in writing that you helped this guy get a gun. They want to make you liable if he comes in and starts shooting. Do you have personal liability insurance??? If not get a couple million today from your homeowners/ renters carrier. If he starts shooting and they have that paper you wrote out you will be liable to the victims. That is your employers plan. All they need to say is that he made threats to get a restaining order, they dont need your statement about helping him get a gun unless they are looking to make you liable, to save their own hide from a lawsuit.

Second off get that paper back from them. If they refuse call a lawyer and advise it was written under duress and you felt that your job was threatened if you didnt comply, the statement you wrote was coerced.

Third start looking for another job now, you dont want to be there if he comes in shooting. AND obviously the employer is not concerned about any ones safety just their own liability. The unarmed security is evidence of that.

 

[Waitone]

Anyone else here see a stick and a hornets nest? If he didn't really have any plans to "Go Postal" before this I can bet you he will afterward.

Pray tell how said employee will "go postal" when the benevolent state of Cali just confiscated the future perp's weapons. The astute THR'er knows instinctively that there are no off the books guns in Cali. They also know badguys don't have access to guns. So please explain to the esteemed forum just how it is a disgruntled (ex)employee could possibly "go postal". Why, even the company is evidently not concerned since it opted to protect the premises with eye candy.

Please, let us not be extremist in our cynicism.

 

[HankB]

I have often wondered what the point of unarmed security is?

Same as a canary in a coal mine.

 

[Oldtimer]

First of all, welcome to THR! For the most part, the members are all friendly and very informative.

Secondly, your situation is quite similar to what one of my nephews was involved in. He works for the USPS and is a supervisor. One of the employees had made numerous threats, and my nephew was directly responsible for having gotten that employee terminated. After the termination process had been done, that EX-employee made further verbal threats.....and he was supposedly a HUGE man, with a military background.

While restraining orders can't stop a violent act, they CAN be used as a "tool". If the person listed violates the rules of the restraining order, the loal police CAN arrest him for that violation. If he is gone by the time the police arrive, a CRIME report of the restraining order violation NEEDS to be completed.

Yes, mere "criminal trespass" can be prosecuted, but most restraining orders go beyond the "trespass" law....perhaps as far as 1,000 feet past the physical location of the premises. IF that person is seen within the boundaries set forth in the restraining order, it IS a violation....and a CRIME report should be taken. While that violation may be deemed as a mere infraction or misdemeanor, a massive accumulation of those reports will be reflected in court....and the more there are, the more severe the punishment.

You are NOT responsible for having merely discussed firearms with that former employee. I don't know why your employer is making that some sort of "issue". Of course, there seems to be a "blame game" trend of late, and your having explained that to your boss sort of puts you in the position of being a "patsy"....but so what?

If, from what you posted is correct, that former employee has done nothing "criminal" up to this point. What he has said MIGHT have been construed as "terrorist threats", but you didn't detail anything of that nature. So far, it has been "idle" threats, and the chances are that he will NOT carry out any of them

 

[Johnnybgood]

Personally

I Think I would be tempted to get one of many mini 9's that are concealable and strap it on where it isn't seen (leg?). If this guy does show up, then I have an ability to defend myself. Against the law? Yeah. But I would still be alive to defend myself in court. I would also put the paperwork into motion for concealed carry. It may be a crapshoot but it shows you tried to do things legally. Just my 2 cents.

 

[rick_reno]

It doesn't read like your signing this thing is required for them to get a restraining order. If you agree to sign it, will the company offer you any personal protection? I was in a similar situation in the last place I worked (I wasn't asked to sign any documents), but I was offered protection. I wouldn't sign it - all it'll do is put a big target on your back. Under certain types of restraining orders, the person identified in the order cannot possess, have, buy or try to buy firearms. This could push someone on the edge over pretty fast.

 

[CAPTAIN MIKE]

Why Did You HELP Him???

Okay, Let's review:

# 1 - You KNOW this guy made Threats at work.
# 2 - You BELIEVE he is Unstable.
# 3 - You PROVIDED training and guidance for him about Firearms, thus making yourself a likely Co-Defendant in any Wrongful Death action against him.

What in the HECK were you thinking???

 

[Shipwreck]

Okay, Let's review:

# 1 - You KNOW this guy made Threats at work.
# 2 - You BELIEVE he is Unstable.
# 3 - You PROVIDED training and guidance for him about Firearms, thus making yourself a likely Co-Defendant in any Wrongful Death action against him.

What in the HECK were you thinking???

I guess U completely missed the part where he said he did this BEFORE he knew the guy was a problem.

 

[WayneConrad]

What in the HECK were you thinking???

CaptainMike, You probably missed this post:

When I started to communicate with my co-worker he seemed to be a person of good character. I was not aware of his unstableness until it was too late.

...

Preacherman, I didn’t teach him to shoot. He was in the Army; US Govt trained him to shoot about 10 years ago or so.

 

[WT]

I would not sign that document. Doing so might place you in the X-ring when the former employee learns of it, as he assuredly will. Are you prepared to handle his intrusion into your workplace if your employer fails to do so? What if you meet him on the street?


Secondly, I would not accept blame for the actions of another. Some may try to lay a guilt trip on you. If this guy wacks out, it is not your fault. The company and its legal counsel can get a restraining order without your name on some document. The HR weenies have experience handling incidents such as this.


Take appropriate actions to protect yourself. When it comes right down to it, YOU are responsible for your safety - not your employer.

 

[SJG26]

The R.O. is good for the office (sarcasm on)

So whats to prevent hime from waiting out in the lot---or follow individuals around, etc, etc...............do the individuals that were threatened EACH have an R.O. (plus a CCW) or is this corporate doing a CYA??

 

[Baba Louie]

Company is going CYA, so you should probably do the same... somehow. Be it legally (your own papertrail explaining who, what, when, why, etc) and, (altho' I never condone breaking the law,) tactically, by having something "Handy", just in case, as others here have expressed.

I, personally, would not sign anything that could be used against me, either in a court of law or employment-wise. Probably worth buying your attorney a good lunch and discussion, paying (of course) for sage advice.

This is one of those potential "Rock and Hard Place" scenarios that will, in most likelihood, be much ado about nothing... but like a good Boy Scout, it never hurts to be prepared... does it?

What's the title of that book, Dial 911 and Die?

Here's to hoping that a blowhard venting will remain simply words, in lieu of action worthy of the morning News.

 

[Smurfslayer]

I am of the opinion that signing that paper will ultimately lead to your dismissal from your current job. I also believe that management is trying to indemnify themselves personally and pin the responsibility elsewhere by identifying you as a lynchpin in his potentially losing his marbles and doing something bad. I would believe given just what you have said here that they could easily have a police investigation done to start the paperwork with just what they have. The police will investigate coworkers as part their responsibilities and they will no doubt discover your acquaintence with this person. A lawyer should be obtained for their guidance in this.

This act wreaks of "human resources" involvement, which ultimately will not end up well for you. Once you "rise up on the radar" in this event, your employer will keep in mind your involvement. Merely the mention of a name in one of these (what often end up as) H.R. witch hunts is enough for them to consider you "more trouble" than it is worth to keep you. Even as a victim in the event, if you make too much noise for their comfort, they will conveniently find a way for you to seek other employment. It may not be obvious, or immediate, but given the gravity of the situation, it could be. Your boss could be instructed to "reevaluate" your performance review with some "reminders". This hypothetical "lackluster review" would then be compared to the "company model", and deemed insufficient. You would then be "strongly considered" in the next round of layoffs.

Heck, your statements already are sufficient legal grounds for the company to end your working relationship. More than one court has upheld a company's ability to regulate outside the office conduct if it negatively, or COULD negatively impact the company's reputation.

I'm not certain what the best way to extricate yourself from this mess is, but signing that paper I'm certain is NOT it.

+1 on looking for new employment. In the interim, work from home if you can, avoid contact with the former coworker and exercise your right to remain silent on this, especially to coworkers.

I am going to vehemently disagree with Preacherman in this regard, albeit (hopefully) in polite discourse. Your employer already has all the evidence it needs against the former coworker, you are only obliged and "honor bound" to safeguard yourself, and your family. Your moral compass may perhaps require you to consider strongly the support of your good friends but remember that your first duty must be to your family and yourself.

 

[spacemanspiff]

I was asked by a Manager who I also consider a friend to put this information in writing & I did so for the company’s records. The Company is now in the process of obtaining a Restraining order and asked of me to sign my statement for our company’s attorneys. I declined today & advised then I’ll think about it over night. The paperwork is just confirming that's he's a gun owner.

do not sign! you do NOT need to confirm if he owns guns. it wont make the RO any more valid or useful. let the courts do their own battle with him and his guns.

in the meantime, take a few sick days. encourage others to do such. until your employer either allows you to carry what you need to defend yourself or employs enough well trained armed guards to repel the lunatics attack.

 

[Wayne D]

First of all, you didn’t “help” him buy guns! You answered questions that he asked you about how to legally acquire a firearm – right? You didn’t accompany him to the gun shop, did you? You didn’t give him any information that he wouldn’t have gotten from the Sheriff’s Dept. had he picked up the phone and called them, did you?

Take the paper to a lawyer and have him re-write it to cover your ass, making it clear that you only answered questions concerning the legal acquisition of firearms and that you in no way helped him buy them. Then sign it and tell your employer that this is your statement and it’s the only one you’re signing. If they’re being straight with you then they’ll accept it and that will be it. If they won’t take it, then you know they’re trying to make you the scapegoat.

 

[1%er]

I'm not a lawyer BUT i did stay at a Holiday Inn last nite>>>>>

1) restraining orders do not have to include firearms to be issued

thusly that means

2) they can get one with out your signed letter

and to protect yoursefl

apply for all the permits for your lovely state (even if denied...) then study the legal term MENS REA (hint latin: criminal intent) you might spend a couple of nights eating a green baloney sandwich, but the lawyers are free and your still alive, whats the sily saying here judged by 12 carried by 6 whatever DONT BE A TARGET for him nor your employer !!

P.S. get that resume ready

 

[1%er]

I'm not a lawyer BUT i did stay at a Holiday Inn last nite>>>>>

1) restraining orders do not have to include firearms to be issued

thusly that means

2) they can get one with out your signed letter

and to protect yoursefl

apply for all the permits for your lovely state (even if denied...) then study the legal term MENS REA (hint latin: criminal intent) you might spend a couple of nights eating a green baloney sandwich, but the lawyers are free and your still alive, whats the silly saying here judged by 12 carried by 6 whatever DONT BE A TARGET for him nor your employer !!

P.S. get that resume ready

 

[Double Maduro]

Ryder,

Lots of people get screwed over by their employer and fellow employees. Some own guns and some don't. So what?

They fired a guy for excercising his first ammendment rights and now they want to work their way up to his second ammendment rights?

First, I don't believe the first ammendment gives you the right to threaten or otherwise terrorize your fellow humans.

Secondly, I don't believe that a mentally unstable person, he may not be, he may only be a bully, should be allowed to own firearms.

This is not a 2nd ammendment issue. This is a public safety issue.

Now, the whole thing about the state taking his guns away is bs anyway. I can get one within minutes with no paperwork and no trail. So can he.

Onemoreround,

I, I am not a lawyer, believe that there is a thing called an exclusion order. It basically bars a person from enterring your property. If they do, the consequences are greater than a restraining order.

On another note. Most people who blow up when they are fired, or who exhibit anger at work, never cause any problems, I know, it only takes one. The people most likely to come back and do harm are the ones who go meekly away and accept their termination without showing any emotion.

The advice to see an attorney, sounds good.

Good luck. Let us know what happens.
DM

 

[ARperson]

My two shiny pennies....

I wouldn't sign it.

I can see no logical/legal reason why they would need your signature on a piece of paper to confirm whether or not the guy did or did not purchase a firearm. How would you really know anyway unless you were with him when he bought it?

 

[odysseus]

I agree, you need to be careful on this one when it comes to signing said documents. Speaking to an attorney might be of great benefit. Also when it comes to employers, they simply will do anything they can for their advantage for good reasons. Not yours - this is not to say they are not aligned, but I wouldn't expect them to reciprocate easily if things were the other way around.

 

[engineer151515]

+10000 Do not sign.

+ 20000 Consult a lawyer. An initial "first hour free" consultation would be very helpful at this point.

+1 on start looking for new employment (if only for the update/proactice).

You need a CCW permit, a keltec P3AT in a pocket holster, and maintain a low profile until either you leave for new employment or this blows over to your satisfaction.

The above is not to be confused with professional legal or self defense advise.


Good luck.

 

[1 old 0311]

Right now it sounds like he is pissed at your employer. If you sign ANYTHING against him he will be pissed at you. Your employer can afford security. Can you? Lastly YES he can get a copy of the report. A neighbor of mine was running a massage parlor in her house. I filed a complaint. She got a copy from the police. Cover your ass.

Kevin