Test results of .357 Mag ammo

[singlestack9]

Looking for recent ballistic gel test results comparing the best currently available .357 Mag ammo. Specifically, looking for numbers on penetration and expansion through bare and also denim. Anyone have a source?

 

[Rob96]

It's really hard to come by, as most people aren't testing revolvers these days.

 

[singlestack9]

It's really hard to come by, as most people aren't testing revolvers these days.

That's what is getting me disturbed. Not only are they not being tested, but ammo manufacturers have spent next to zero R&D time/money on the .357 Mag cartridge probably in the last 15 years...

Whereas, all the R&D is being poured into designing the best possible cartridges in all the common service calibers (9mm, .45 ACP, .40 S&W, .357 SIG).

I was reading over on tacticalforums.com, and DocGKR made the following post (which disturbed me greatly):

During the early to mid 1980’s, like many people, I was duped by articles singing the praises of the .357 Mag 125 gr JHP. I carried a 4†686 and a customized 3†M13 loaded with Fed 125 gr JHP. However, after going on active military duty and being in a position to test ammunition at the Letterman Army Institute of Research with Dr. Fackler, it became obvious that the .357 Magnum 125 gr JHP’s tended to have relatively shallow penetration, frequently fragmented with resultant decrease in permanent crush cavity, and had temporary cavities of insufficient size to contribute significantly to wounding. In addition, these loads had a large muzzle flash and blast, as well as a relatively harsh recoil which inhibited accuracy and re-engagement speed. As the FBI established a science based ammunition testing program, their research data also showed less than stellar performance from the lightweight .357 Mag loadings, including the 125 gr JHP’s. For those individuals who doubt evidence based research and prefer “street resultsâ€, the CHP, the largest agency to issue .357 Mag 125 gr JHP’s on the West Coast, clearly reports significantly better results in their officer involved shootings since switching to .40 S&W 180 gr JHP loadings, based on officer perception, objective crime scene measurements, as well as the physiological damage described in the relevant autopsy studies. Anecdotally, one need look no further than the failure of Trooper Coates’s .357 Mag 125 gr JHP’s to incapacitate the criminal who murdered him to dramatically illustrate the problems with this load.

At this time, I do not believe that the .357 Magnum is a good caliber choice for a primary duty, back-up, or self-defence weapon.

I happen to own a S&W 686P, but now I'm starting to really wonder if the .357 Mag is really as great as all the hype. Maybe I'd be better of with one of the standard service calibers, since that is where all the R&D dollars are going into the best bullet designs.

 

[444]

I hate to get involved in these types of threads because there really is no way for us to come to a logical, educated conclusion. But this stuff sounds like a bunch of crap to me.
"one need look no further than the failure of Trooper Coates’s .357 Mag 125 gr JHP’s to incapacitate the criminal who murdered him to dramatically illustrate the problems with this load."
So, based on one single shooting we are going to condem the cartridge ? Failure to incapacitate criminals happens all the time with every caliber up to and including rifle bullets and shotgun slugs. I saw a guy within the last year that was shot right in the center of the chest with a .40 S&W and it took him two days to die. What does it prove ? As has been mentioned many times on threads like this, during WWII people were getting shot by 8mm Mausers, .30-06, .303s, 7.62x54s................ and lived to tell about it. And now we condemn the .357 for doing the same thing ?
"At this time, I do not believe that the .357 Magnum is a good caliber choice for a primary duty, back-up, or self-defence weapon."
Balderdash. The .357 was used for years as a law enforcement weapon. I am no expert on the subject, but I have heard very few complaints about it over the years. Just prior to the .357 cartridge being unveiled to the public, Wesson went on an extended hunting trip where he took pretty much every big game animal on the North American continent using a .357 revolver; I believe this included grizzly bear. And it is inadequate for humans ?

 

[Morgan]

Note that the good Doc is speaking of the 125gr loadings.

I would feel fine with a 158gr magnum, probably a Gold Dot from ProLoad, were I to carry a .357. When I bought my Dad a .357 I gave him 158's.

Actually, with the Gold Dot or similar bonded bullet, a 125 should hold together and penetrate well - but I'd still go for the 158.

 

[444]

If it isn't on wheels or have bombs hanging under it's wings, don't count on a one shot stop.

 

[Neal Bloom]

I always felt undergunned with my .357. I guess that is why I own 5 of them.

 

[singlestack9]

Okay. So what are the best defensive loads for a 4" 686P? And can anyone provide test results comparing the penetration and expansion scores between what is considered the top .357 Mag loads? Thanks.

 

[Rob96]

I thought Trooper Coates revolver was loaded with 38spcl. +p ammo. But anyway.

In my Ruger 4" GP-100 I carry Wichester 145gr Silvertips. You will probably be very hard pressed to find a load this good. I have done my own informal tests of shooting this load thru 3 layers of an M65 field jacket into water soaked newsprint. It always expanded, even when fired out of my 2.25" SP-101. Expansion is over .60 and penetration is 14"-16". Other loads I have tested in my Rugers, Winchester 110gr JHP and Federal 125gr Classic Hi Shoks. I would feel comfortable with any of them. The Speer 125gr Gold Dot is a definet thumper, though I haven't conducted my informal testing of this one.
Edited to add.

http://pub57.ezboard.com/fammolabforumfrm21.showMessage?topicID=78.topic

http://pub57.ezboard.com/fammolabforumfrm21.showMessage?topicID=36.topic

 

[singlestack9]

How does the Winchester 145gr silvertips compared to the Winchester 180 gr. Partition Gold JHP?

*sigh*

I wish somebody would just go ahead and test all of these loads out in ballistic gelatin and post their results! The .357 Mag, while not a popular LE round anymore, is still probably THE most popular self-defense revolver round (perhaps aside from .22lr or .38spl but who cares about those)...

 

[valnar]

Federal or Proload 158 should be fine. Federal also makes a 130, but have not tried it.

-Robert

 

[singlestack9]

So far I've heard:

Winchester 145gr silvertip
Winchester 180gr Partition Gold JHP
Federal/Proload 158gr

Let's see the gel numbers!

 

[ChristopherG]

singlestack,

Noone is producing 357 gel numbers for the same reason noone is researching bullet designs to solve the problems of the 357; there are no problems with the .357.
Now, I agree to concerns about 125 gr bullets along the line expressed in the Fackler-influenced site you mention above. But in a 158 gr. bullet, it's a pretty simple matter to figure out that the 357 works. In lieu of gel tests, you can look at statistics like the comparative velocity, weight, and sectional density of the 357 vs. whatever competitor you want to stack it up against. The bullets are certainly of similar design--the silvertip, or the Gold Dot, or whatever.

If what you're wanting is for one of us to go out and 'test' the .357, I'll tell you why I'm not going to bother; I, like a lot of other folks, shoot the 357 because I'm confident it doesn't need testing. I shoot 158 gr. Gold Dots, and I'm not worried that they're not as good as anything else currently available.

Now, I wouldn't mind having more choice, to be sure. For special applications, like a 2" gun, I'd like federal to introduce a EMFJ, or corbon their powerball, to help ensure expansion at the lower velocities one has to deal with in a shorter barrel. But in a 4 or 6" gun? Hardly necessary.

ps--the 180 partition is a hunting bullet; even the hardcore Facklerite would admit, I think, that it presents the risk of overpenetration--thus wasting bullet energy, even if you don't think about what's behind your target.

 

[WESHOOT2]

OOH! OOH! LET ME TRY

Humans are not scientific, so jello tests are IMNSHO meaningless.

Science has not answered your question, so just guess, or learn from others experience.

In a 357 4" suggest a quality (Pro Load, Cor-Bon, Federal, Winchester, R-P, Georgia Arms) high-speed 125g JHP.
For shooting people.
In the 40 S&W try R-P's conventional 155g JHP.
In 45 ACP I'm partial to the 230g Golden Saber projectile, and I consider the Winchester SXT to be a good bullet, too.
For shooting people.

But there is no data that meets "scientific" muster, so quit asking.
Please.


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha (22LR) ha!

 

[Penforhire]

To me it comes down to statistics. You have to pick SOME criteria for choosing a defensive round (and caliber).

I know .22's kill more people but no way do they have a good one-shot-stop %. I also know 12 ga buckshot has an excellent record, but we're talking handguns here. Seems to me the published statistics point to a stoutly loaded 125 g 357 Mag cartridge as the load of choice and I have no doubts about its power compared to, say, 9 mm standard loads. I wouldn't feel terrible about 158 g but, to me, more velocity and penetration is better.

I am open to more statistics, anyone? But anecdotal evidence (particular instance) is useless.

 

[ChristopherG]

Penforhire--the 125 will penetrate less, not more, than the 158. That's the crux of the debate between Marshall/Sanow & Fackler as representatives of the debate between 'light & fast' vs. 'heavy & slow', a.k.a. 'energy/shock' vs. penetration. Heavier bullets = greater momentum = deeper reliable penetration. Lighter bullets = greater (kinetic) energy = more 'shock'. The concern expressed at the top with the 125 is that it's going so fast & expands so rapidly that it doesn't have a chance, sometimes, to get into the boilerroom.

The stats you point to come principally from the research of Marshall and Sanow. It is a kind of 'systematized' anecdotal evidence, the 'systematization' of which has been questioned (polite term) by some. I dunno--but I like the idea that I might hit the spine from any angle on a target, so I go with the 158. Anyway you look at it, the 357 is a great delivery system.

 

[Lofland]

Go read Sanow & Marshall, Stopping Power, so you can study both sides in this Jihad. Sanow & Marshall have test results for various .357 loads. I don't believe everything in that book, but I at least think they probably did a decent job with the gelatin tests. In .357, you can get a bullet hits whatever spot you prefer on the expansion-penetration spectrum. You can look at www.stoppingpower.net to see if they have any results since the publication of their book. In general, neither side in the bullet controversy impresses me very much.

 

[Jim March]

I'm shopping for a 357 for next month's paycheck and I intend to score some 158 Gold Dot-based load for "business purposes" - Georgia Arms or Proload in all likelyhood. I'm looking at either a 4.68" or 5.5" tube.

It's not at all as critical a choice as "what to feed a 38snubbie". There's probably a couple dozen 357 loads I'd trust my neck to in a 4" or greater barrel, and only three on a 2" barrel 38+P. In a 2" 357, the number of possible loads drops some but it's still not too crazy...some of the 125s have an energy advantage in the short barrel.

 

[singlestack9]

Well, at the moment I have the gray colored box Winchester SuperX 357 MAG 145gr Silvertip HP "Personal Protection" loaded up in my 7 shot 686P....

Seems like a good compromise between the 158gr and the 125gr camps....

I'd still like to see some ballistics tests, since I am one who believes in the FBI protocols as far as expansion and penetration.

 

[444]

I don't see what the problem is with using a 158 grain bullet ?
Police used them for decades in the .38 Special with a very poor bullet design.
Today we have far superior bullets and we are pushing them at substantially more velocity than those cops of yesteryear.
But now, with those two monumental improvements, we don't even want to consider them

 

[sm]

Yeah, agree on 158 gr lead also.

<whistle> Hey WEESHOOT, get back in here, and where is Sam ?

Ok so I knows we have new bullets and such, but many of the 357s (even 38 spl) are shorter bbls. people are totin'. 158 grainer especially in LSWC HP , would make sense to me. Umm I use them. Don't shoot jello myself, do use the "mud/dirt" test...occaissonal critters and such, and have shot bldg materials, cars, windshields...

Educate, explain, thoughts?

 

[WESHOOT2]

SPEED OF THOUGHT

If velocity doesn't mtter why is there a 300 Kong?

Just some personal-type-thinking BS: spine shots are hard to make under stress (but some train this way -- heavier bigger bullets); short or long, a barrel needs testing before statements like "It's too short to give good speed" are made; IF I were to bring a 357 to the party (Hahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ha!) I'd be wearing one with 125g JHP(at maybe 1500fps) all stuffed up inside it UNLESS I were in a LE capacity, because then I'd be stuffing it full of 140g XTP's going 1400fps; better make all hits regardless of caliber -- especially the first one; no one wants to be shot by anything (I've noticed); high-velocity handgun ammo striking people seems to disorient them more than heavy penetrators (anecdotal -- I haven't been shot by both); caliber of shooter is more important; stay safe so's it (this discussion) will ALWAYS be moot.

My wife's M38 holds 140g XTP-HP's just over expansion threshold, we hope.

 

[Jim March]

Well first, an unjacketed lead 158 hollowpoint moving at 357 velocities wouldn't work real well. In hardcast, no expansion, in soft it would just go seriously "splat" and lead the barrel something crazy (to where shot #6 might be problematic).

So with the 357's leading issues, you've got to run a jacket on any expandable load. JHPs need speed to work with; through the late '70s and well into the '80s, you really needed more than 1,200fps and that meant sticking with 125s to get the velocity (1,400+).

BUT the Gold Dot 158 will expand down around 1,150 or even a bit less. Proload sets theirs up at 1,250 from a 4" tube, so they're still in the groove from a 2" barrel as long as the range isn't crazy...from a 4", they should work OK even out to 100 yards. And the Gold Dots resist "overspeed problems" so shoot 'em in a 6", 8" or even carbine barrel and they should do quite well although I imagine they'll shed some in a carbine. Still, the hotter 125 loads will probably come completely unglued in a carbine and show severe overspeed signs in an 8".

("Overspeed" means the nosecone just shredded post-expansion and the main core of the round dropped back down to close to caliber diameter and probably drilled straight through still moving at lethal speeds. Bad scene in any bystander-dense situation...)

 

[Rob96]

Here is the newest info I could dig up for you.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/357magnum.htm

It is from 1998 but most 357 loads probably haven't changed much if at all over the last 5 yrs. Like it was said the 357 works and hasn't needed improvement. On the 180gr Partition Gold loads. I think it is a fairly sout load to shoot quickly and accurately.

 

[BluRidgDav]

Didn't a 125 grain .357 load "win" the Strausburg(sp?) tests ???
(timed incapacitation of big goats that were shot in the chest for a controlled simulation of living human targets)

and

Aren't a lot of LE agencies (including the Secret Service) switching to the .357 SIG (125gr @ 1350fps) to get "old" .357 revolver performance out of an autoloading platform ???

Seems like the .357 magnum is still HARD to beat as a self-defense caliber !!!