Test results of .357 Mag ammo

[444]

Jim, I wasn't talking about cast lead bullets.
You mention that a Gold Dot will expand at around 1150 fps. I dug out some load data/chrono data I happened to have lying right in front of me and see that I tested three handloads out of my SP101 with a 2 1/4" barrel. They averaged 1084 fps, 1149 fps, 1201 fps. These same loads out of the 4" GP100 gave me 1354 fps, 1321 fps, and 1234 fps. All but one of the loads out of the 2 1/4" SP101 should give you enough velocity for reliable expansion of the Gold Dot HP and obviously all the loads in the 4" barrel give way more than enough velocity to expand that bullet. All these loads are straight out of the book, I wasn't pushing things here.
I went in and opened a box of Hornady XTP bullets to get that little paper they put in the bottom of the box that lists the range of impact velocitites that give the best performance for their bullets. In .357, 158 grain it says 700-1400 fps. Again, this criteria is very easy to meet.

I personally believe in heavy bullets, and out of the .357 mag. I see the 158 gr. bullet as being the most versitile. It gives you plenty of velocity to give good bullet performance and enough weight to give you good penetration also.

 

[Blueduck]

Didn't a 125 grain .357 load "win" the Strausburg(sp?) tests ???

Tons of data is quoted from the test from lots of sources. Problem is when you try to look into the actual test there is STRONG evidense the whole thing was a hoax that never took place...

Somebody rounded up over 100 fairly rare goats, all of the approximate same size/age, surgically implanted sophisticated electronics into them, shot them measuring results. Then anonymously submitted the report

 

[Mannlicher]

Gun writers and testing gurus have to come up with something new all the time to stay in business. Contentious subjects like saying that the .357 is no longer viable just increases readership and sells magazines.

One of the reasons that there is not a lot of new loads coming out, it that there is not much room for improvment. The .357 works. Period.

My personal favorite in a Factory loading is the Hydroshock 158 grain JHP, or the Speer GD JHP.

For handloads, which I carry most of the time, I like the Speer 146 grain SWCJHP over a fair amount of SR4756. Accuracy is wonderful, recoil is not that bad, and that bullet DOES expand at 1400fps.

 

[Jim March]

444: If the Hornady XTP 357 will expand at 700fps, I'll eat my hat. And the only hat I have is a motorcycle helmet, so that's saying something.

The XTP is really a hunting load. Expansion doesn't tend to be at the top of the scale, expansion is delayed, but once expanded it's tough and somewhat resistant to both bone-hits and "overspeed problems". In 240grain 44Mag flavor, it's a GREAT load for black bear and boar, and can do that job in 357 too if you can get around 1,450 at the muzzle.

But it consistently stinks at low-speed expansion. I won't even consider any XTP for 38+P.

Hell, the Gold Dots won't do well at 700fps either, but they'll almost always expand at lower velocities than the equivelent XTP, caliber and bullet weight being equal.

Regarding that 1998 data somebody posted: there have indeed been significant tweaks to the Gold Dots since then, and probably others. So take that with a grain o' salt (not meant as a slur on the website or the accuracy of the original data). That said, it's interesting to see Federal's stuff consistently sucking again. There's a LOT of people who just insist on swearing by Hydrashocks when the performance data from EVERY source shows 'em down close to dead last and way too often, the powder charges not delivering peak "ooomph".

 

[444]

" If the Hornady XTP 357 will expand at 700fps, I'll eat my hat. And the only hat I have is a motorcycle helmet, so that's saying something."

So if I shoot one into an anvil, you will send me a picture of you wolfing down some fiberglass ?

 

[Dave T]

This is in support of the idea of the 158g in the 357 instead of M&S's darling, the 125g.

The 155g bullet is getting to be all the rage in the 40 S&W Auto pistols. It goes something like 1100-1200 fps. It would stand to reason that a 158g bullet that was only 1mm smaller in diameter, traveling at about the same velocity, should do at least as well as the auto pistol.

 

[ChristopherG]

I'm intrigued by the bullet Mannlicher mentions--the 146 gr Half-Jacketed Semi-Wadcutter Lead Hollowpoint. I hadn't been aware of its existence before, but here it is:

http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/275027

Anybody else have any experience with this bullet? Seems like you could build a super moderate-velocity (and moderate blast) load that would both penetrate adequately and expand easily enough to stop in its target with some certainty. As I say, I'm intrigued. The chance to shoot a LSWCHP, basically, at 357 velocities without the leading problem alluded to by Jim above. Any further experiences or opinions to share?

 

[Jim March]

Whoa! Those ARE nice...dang! I wonder how fast you can drive 'em without 'em coming apart? I'd guess 1,200fps or so? If the lead is the same hardness as the usual plain-lead LSWC-HPs used in 38+P, the "sweet spot" oughtta be around 1,100ish with good performance from 950 to...dunno, but I wouldn't go past 1,200.

By 1,400 I'll betcha they'll shed the nosecone like Hillary dropped Vince Foster . But if the goal was to get something useful without full-boogie-stomp recoil in an SP101 or similar (like maybe an Unobtanium S&W?)....HMMMmmmm.

 

[BluesBear]

I was using the Speer 146gr SWCHP over 25 years ago in my 6" Python.
I loved this bullet. It did everything I wanted it to do.

It was accurate.
It didn't lead the barrel.
It would vaporize a gallon milk jug of water.
It would pulverize a block of ice.
It would rip the shot out of a phone book, wet or dry.

I was reloading Remington and Norma brass using CCI 550 Magnum Small Pistol Primers over a healthy charge of IMR4576. I won't mention the exact load because I think it might be a bit stout even though I never had any excess pressure indications and recoil was about the same as the hot Hornady 158gr JHP. I think I got this load out of the Law Enforcement Handgun Digest but I am not sure.

Just my tuppence, YMMV.

 

[Jim March]

Just guessing here, but if the goal is to do "full power loads" with, say, a 158 @1,300 or better, the Gold Dot will work better than that 146. The lead and jacket of the Gold Dot are bonded such that they resist flying apart.

The role I see for those 146s is for when you want to cut the power/recoil some, basically working at the border of "really warm 38Spl" and 357. Betcha anything that at around 1,100fps, they're the best in the world.

25 years ago, these probably WERE the best possible at pretty much any speed, but the tech has advanced some since.

Now, those are my opinions based on reading a lot...when I do score a 357 and start reloading (soon now! I'm *employed* finally!) I intend to play around with both.

 

[ChristopherG]

Yup, Jim, that's exactly the role that I'd envision for these. My own unobtanium 357 shoots the 158 Gold dot wonderfully at around 1100, and is controllable to me (with appropriate grips & practice)--but I feel like I'm on the lower end of the performance envelope for that bullet. With this 146, I could hit that speed or even a little faster with the same recoil, and a lot more confidence that the bullet would splat on impact. I'm gonna try 'em out.

 

[Blueduck]

Some stuff I've always wondered about that might fit in this thread

357 really became known as the king of stopping power in LE with a 125 grain hollowpoint driven so fast that it regularly fragmented. Now days most the high-tech bullets (Gold Dot, Bonded Golden Sabre) are designed virtually from scratch to do anything BUT fragment. I know there have been cases where fragmentation or overexpansion of various rounds led to underpenetration, but I'm wondering if were really comparing apples to untested oranges looking at the street results of the old style 125 grain hollowpoint results compared to the newer tech rounds???

Another thing I've wondered about is jelly test which seem to indicate that the old style 125 grain hollowpoints were on the shallow end of the penetration scale (enough to put some folks off it), yet I've also heard LE agencies and others repeatidly justify the move away from the 357 due to it's OVERpenetration???

 

[Jim March]

Blueduck? Don't assume that the guys writing up the PR material for police departments who are justifying a switch to slideguns are either A), gun guys and technically correct or B), honest regardless of their technical expertise.

 

[George Hill]

Wait a sec...

Fragmentation is bad?
But lately that is all the M-16/AR-15 cats have been banking on... that the 5.56MM fragments.
So if a 55 gr .22 caliber slug that fragments is so outstanding... why wouldn't a .355 caliber slug weighing in at 125 grains be just as earthshattering?

 

[444]

As long as you get decent penetration also, it isn't bad. In fact it is good.
Keep in mind though that in the rifle bullet (5.56 military ball) you also have a steel core that continues to penetrate after the lead and jacket have fragmented.

 

[Jim March]

George, there appears to be different "types" of fragmentation going on between the two examples.

The 223 is moving fast enough that the fragments are thrown explosively forward. This aids wounding, and is more or less how a Glaser or Magsafe works, but better because of the velocity/energy involved.

With a 125grain 357 moving at between 1,400 and 1,500fps, something different happens: expansion begins and it looks like the typical JHP "mushroom", but then the "rim" or "petals" flake away and are found dribbled back along the wound channel like breadcrumbs on a trail. They're not thrown forward or even sideways, and don't do squat for wounding. I've seen any number of gelatin photos and test data where this pattern is clear...the round isn't "exploding" at all.

With this pattern, you end up with a projectile that's dropped back down close to the bore caliber and minus about 20% - 25% of it's original weight. This is sub-optimal.

The Gold Dot's serious bonding of the lead to the jacket was an attempt to prevent this effect, and it works...or rather, it moves the effect up in speed by at least 100fps over most other JHPs and by some reports, considerable more than 100 in most calibers. (That's why I keep mentioning Gold Dots for people who have unusually long barrels for their caliber, such as with carbines or whatever.)

Now, drive a 125 fast enough and you DO get that "explosive red mist" effect. A number of wildcat cartridges involve necking down the 44Mag or 41Mag to 357 and driving 125s at up to 2,200fps . Some reports from those loonies claim that "red mist effects" of the round violently "blowing up" on impact and doing wound damage seldom seen this side of a cannon have been reported.

But there's very little hard data on the subject. I'm willing to believe that at some velocity point, very explosive fragmentation happens with 357-bore projectiles, but I don't claim to know what the required velocity is. The cheap way to play with this is to get a Blackhawk convertable in 357/9mm and have Gary Reeder ream the 9mm out to 356GNR (necked down 41Mag) and I'm seriously considering doing just that. (As a bonus: if that wildcat is downloaded to where it's only doing conventional 357Mag peformance, recoil should be more moderate as the peak pressures involved are lower, and the cases should fall right out of the gun for the same reason, if the cylinder bores are polished some.)

 

[Pinned&Recessed]

I like 158 gr .357 myself.

I recall reading the summary of the tests the FBI conducted when they were in a frenzy to replace their sidearms and were testing the 10mm Auto. IIRC, they tested some other calibers side-by-side with the 10mm and the only two others to pass all the barrier, clothing and gel tests were Federal's 230gr Hydra-shok .45 ACP and 158gr Hydra-shok .357 Magnum.

I know some here poo-poo Federal for wimping out on powder charges, and it's deserved because they sometimes do, but I think they design damn good bullets. I like the Hydra-shok and the older Hi-shok.

I found thier 158gr Hydra-shoks to be damn reliable out of my 4" M19. 1203-1255 fps has been my spread as tested on a buddy's chrono. Not to shabby.

 

[BluRidgDav]

Maybe someone has some high-speed experience from a old .357 Remington MAXimum?

or

By firing some hot .357 loads out of a 18-20" carbine barrel?

or

By firing some .357 bullets handloaded into a .35 Remington rifle?