Testing pistols - ammunition woes and recommendations

[Al Thompson]

Browsing the threads, I've noticed a bunch of folks talking about inaccurate pistols, but virtually no mention of ammo used. FWIW, I've shot competition since 1980 (formally) and (informally) since my first handgun purchase in 1977.

While most handguns do fine with ball ammo, over the last few years I encountered several lots of 9mm, .40 and .45 that simply didn't shoot very well in pistols of known accuracy. I *think* that the importation of high quality ad inexpensive surplus ammo (except perhaps .40) drove the major domestic ammo makers to cut costs in their inexpensive lines.

My advice is for the folks with new pistols is to purchase a box or two of generally good ammo to test before concluding that the firearm is inaccurate. I had a NIB .40 that simply threw all ball ammo in a shotgun pattern, but loved almost any JHP.

I've found that Gold Dots and Hornady XTPs do fine. Have not tried any of the Winchester loads and have so-so success with Remington GS. My favorite carry and accuracy loads for my pistols is Georgia Arms Gold Dots in different flavors.

Anyone see any accuracy issues with different bullet weights in individual pistols?

 

[Handy]

That's an excellent point Al, but it's hard to spend $500 on a pistol then $25 a box on various premium loads in an attempt to find the one that works.

If I can't get a 9mm to group well with my loads, S&B or Win. White box, it's not an accurate pistol, because it's not going to get shot with anything else-I can't afford to make it accurate. It's pointless to carry accurate ammo and practice with inaccurate ammo. But a gun that will group decently with some sort of inexpensive bullet will likely do just as well or better with the defense stuff.

I guess I would say that you need to try a variety of decently priced ammo before you pass judgement. But most people will make a box of Gold Dots last a couple of years.

 

[Al Thompson]

Hmmmmmm....

I had not thought about it like that. I tend to rotate serious ammo out quarterly and also use my pistols for hunting. So a box of "good" ammo gets used fairly frequently.

That's a great point about inexpensivve ammo - if my G19 didn't like WWB from Wal-Mart, I probably wouldn't shoot it as much.

Let me restate my opinion then - all ball is not equal. If there is a problem with one lot/brand, it may pay to make a brand switch to keep from selling a pistol on inadequate information.

Another point would be that while I abhor a group from a rest at 25y of more than 4 inches, frankly most of my IDPA/IPSC shooting requirements could be met with 10 inch groups.

 

[Standing Wolf]

I've never owned a semi-automatic or revolver that didn't have preferences. Some preferences are more marked than others.

 

[sm]

Yes I've run across preferences.
Most of my practice loads are using Montana Bullets, reliable in feeding and accurate.

Carry loads, I test , then test some more. Reliable feeding is a MUST, I will run a min of 500, but usually between 750 -1k rds of a carry load before I carry it.

Winchester STHP in 115 gr for 9mm and the 185 gr in 45ACP seemingly always work in any gun I test. Other favorites include Winchester SXT, Federal "Classic". (HS have been picky). Georgia Arms, Pro Load.

I have some other Pet loads not generally commercially available.

Ammo for a particular gun is very important to me.

 

[BevrFevr]

I shoot 9mm and .357mag mostly.

My experience is that "almost" any 9mm will shoot "almost" any 124gr bullet better than 115 or 147. There are always exceptions.

I think you are on to something about domestic ammo makers though. I find cheap import S&B to be much better than either UMC or WWB regardless of bullet weight. The later of which I no longer will purchase.

I don't see the problem with shooting good ammo all the time. I can get CCI gold dots for about $12 a box.

And for the thought of practicing with less accurate ammo? What is it you are practicing exactly? Making the gun go bang?

I practice hitting my targets as accurately as possible as often as possible. It just doesn't make any sense to me to use anything I already know is going to give inferior performance. I find missing the hard shots takes the fun right out of it.

-bevr

 

[BHP9]

I think I will have to disagree with everyone who says that it is not a good idea to practice with less than super accurate ammo and here is why.

Although I shoot pistol my competition that I am engaged in every summer is with the rifle. I positively do not use premium grade match ammo for practice. And here is why. And I might add the principle is the same in regards to pistols.



The idea of practice is to become more proficient. To practice much will cost a lot of money. To become more proficient has no connection whatsoever with accurate expensive ammo v/s less expensive less accurate ammo.

At the risk of tooting my own horn I am a High Master Rifle shooter and I would never have achieved this exalted status if I had practiced a good deal less because of the high cost of match ammo. Expensive ammo would have prevented me from getting the practice needed to become a High Master Rifleman. Now lets make it very clear. When I compete I use premium grade match ammo in order to win but when I practice it is a complete waste of money to use such high grade ammo for mere practice.

 

[Riphalman]

Hey BHP9....

When I practice, I use a load that I already know will allow me to achieve my greatest potential. In this way I will build and maintain my confidence to the highest level. I know I'll make them count when the flag goes up.

 

[BHP9]

ONe thing that I would like to add is that I do practice on weekends with a gang of fellow nimrods and we go through a lot of ammo very fast. We shoot in the offhand position. No sand bag cheating. All of us to a T use cast lead bullets because they are far cheaper than any jacketed loads we could possibly buy. We all cast our own and often buy powder and lead in bulk. Many times we have casted bullets for as little as a penny a piece so you can see the economic advantage too this.

The old myth that cast bullets are not accurate was shot to pieces only yesterday when I took out a brand new Rifle in 8x57 made in 1930 and fired it for the first time. Out of a new barrel the cast bullets actually shot more accurately than some jackted ammo I had with me and that I also shot. Pistol calibers are no different, it is often possible to exceed the accuracy of jacketed bullets and they are a lot easier on the barrel than jacketed bullets that build up hard to remove copper deposits. Believe me a minor amount of leading is a lot quicker and easier to get out of the barrel than copper fouling.

 

[Riphalman]

I agree BHP9...a good hard cast bullet can be extremely accurate. I go through a lot of 'em.

 

[WESHOOT2]

I LIKE TO DISAGREE --GOODIE, I GET TO DISAGREE AGAIN

If one's chosen gun doesn't perform with cheap ammo, it doesn't mean the gun is inaccurate.
Means one hasn't yet found the correct cheap ammo.

Handload.

 

[Edward429451]

Handload indeed. My lead reloads are as accurate as factory and my jacketed reloads are alot more accurate than factory. At 2 to 4 bucks a box yet.

 

[Jim K]

One of the saddest and silliest postings goes like this:

"I just bought a xxxxx pistol and paid $2200 for the very best I could get. I plan to use it for personal defense as I am on seventeen Mafia hit lists, plus wanted by Al Qaeda and SMERSH.

Where can I get the cheapest ammo for practice? Of course, I'll carry good stuff, but I don't want to shoot any as it is expensive and can I buy a box of 15 rounds just to fill up my gun and spare magazine?

Real Smart"

Jim

 

[BHP9]

One of the saddest and silliest postings goes like this:[/QUOTE

Where can I get the cheapest ammo for practice? Of course, I'll carry good stuff, but I don't want to shoot any as it is expensive and can I buy a box of 15 rounds just to fill up my gun and spare magazine?

I really fail to see your logic here. It makes no sense whatsoever to practice with super expensive ammo. The same level of skill can be achieved with cheap ammo as with super expensive. We are not talking of shooting small winning target groups we are talking about increasing ones skill level. Breath control, muscle control, hand eye coordination. All this has nothing to do with precision ammo.

I became a high master rifle shooter by using plenty of cheap ammo. I used bullets that cost me .03 cents apiece rather than match bullets that cost up to .12 cents a piece. You then have to add in the cost of the powder and primers.

When shooting for the record of course I used precision match grade ammo but when practicing it made no sense whatsoever to use the super expensive stuff especially when shooting over 3,000 rounds a year in practice. Figure out the math. That is a savings of $270.00 and I would not have become one iota a better competitor by using the expensive ammo for practice.

 

[Handy]

I'm kind of missing the debate point here.

My response to Al was that a decently accurate pistol should show its accuracy with some type of lower priced ammo. While it MAY be an accurate gun with one type of premium ammo, its not worth the price of the good stuff to find out or the frustration of going back to shoot super inaccurate cheap stuff to practice with.

An accurate gun SHOULD display it's inherent accuracy with a wide variety of fodder, including some stuff that goes for cheap. There is no way to engineer a gun to only function properly with gold plated bullets.

You may get slightly better accuracy with a premium load, but like I said earlier, you should get very good accuracy with at least one of the cheaper loads out there. And maybe you'll get the best accuracy out of that cheap load.

Restricting your practice to bullets that only comes in 20 packs is foolhardy. You're the weak link in accurate shooting, not the ammo. Pulling the trigger 100 times and getting 4" groups is better training than firing 20 times and hoping to see those 2" groups.

 

[Sir Galahad]

Cast lead bullets are not an option for those with pistols that have polygonal barrels.

My Baby Eagle 9mm likes Blazer and Magtech for cheap ammo. It hates PMC. My XD-40, get this, loves Wolf for cheap ammo. It hasn't hated anything so far, but it loves Wolf. Well, when it comes to cheap food, 2 for 99 cents Jack-In-The-Box tacos give some people horrible gas, and some they don't.

With 9mm, .223, and .308, I've found that military surplus ammo is often just as good or sometimes better than brand-name cheapies. Sometimes, milsurp is made by brand name cheapies. I buy a few packs of different milsurp and when I find an accurate one, I go back and buy a lot of it. With .223 and .308, I discovered that South african milsurp is some of the best out there. Most of this stuff was made in the 1980s.

 

[yankytrash]

I'm with Handy on this one, but I take it a step further and go ahead and compete/carry with my "cheap" ammo that shoots accurately.

Hey, if I can shoot it consistently, it's never given me troubles, and I can afford to practice with it daily, why not carry it?

I guess you could call it Al's theory, but think cheaper.

'course, I'm carryin a 45 with low-speed ball ammo. I think she'll make a hole regardless, a bizillion GI's can't be wrong. Get up in them smaller faster cartridges and my theory is shot to hell.


Bizillion - That's one of them technical pistolero terms I might explain to you later, if you're nice.

 

[Tamara]

Maybe I'm on a different page, here, but...

I think part of the "practice" disconnect may be that some folks load their CCW guns for carry duty with, say, .45 185gr +P JHPs, but do all their practice with 230gr ball.

I've always felt that if one uses hot loads for CCW, that it may be a good idea to pick up a case or so of that ammo so that one can (every so often) practice with a reasonable amount of it. POI and recoil characteristics can be very different...

 

[Handy]

Entirely true. I tend to use the lighter weight 9mm loads for everything and POI is usually the same, even +P. But that's likely a different story with .45 or other 'heavy/slow' loads.

Personally, I don't find the recoil difference between 9mm +P and standard delitarious to accurate shooting. The difference in muzzle rise just slows things down a hair.

 

[WESHOOT2]

JUST ME

I have never met any gun or rocket launcher that understood the word "should".

 

[BHP9]

Cast lead bullets are not an option for those with pistols that have polygonal barrels

It seems as though no matter how many times in the past I have posted this, the old wives tale about polygonal barrels and cast bullets refuses to die. As a consequence people shell out big bucks for jacketed pistol bullets when substututing lead is far, far cheaper.

Whats really sad is many people even replace their polygonal barrels with after market conventional barrels that have conventional rifling and are advertised as the ultimate in shooting cast bullets. A complete waste of money.

The other big myth is that lead is less accurate than jacketed bullets. The facts are the more bullseye matches have been won with people using cast lead bullets than with jackted match grade bullets.

I have shot lead out of many weapons with polygonal barrels and they not only shoot just fine they shoot just great. They actually lead less than conventional barrels but you do have to make sure you clean the barrel after you shoot it. A build up of lead could lead to a blow up sooner than with a conventional barrel but conventional barrels blow up too if the lead becomes too great.

By the way I shoot nothing but lead out of my Glocks and they shoot just great with lead bullets. No problems whatsoever. Just remember to clean the barrel after you shoot it. Leading is very minimal even after shooting 200 rounds on a hot summer day.

I have also shot cast bullets out of poly-gonnal rifle bores. No problems with accuracy at all.

As far as rifles go it must be remembered that their are many sytles of cast lead rifle bullets and they were all designed for a reason. Certain weapons with wide lands and grooves will take a particular type of lead bullet as opposed to narrow lands and grooves that take a different sytle cast bullet. Two groove military rifle barrels will tak a different cast design than the narrower land and groove multi-groove barrels.

I think part of this myth about polygonal bores expecially in rifles got started by people who A. never cleaned their weapons or B. used the wrong style cast bullet for their particular weapon or c. tried to shoot undersized cast bullets out of their weapons by failing to match the bore diameter with the diameter of the cast bullet.

I have never run into a weapon yet that I could not make shoot with some style of cast bullet. And although I do not recommend you try this at home I have even fired lead out of gas pistols. They shot just fine but if the gas system would catch a piece of lead and plug it up you could blow yourself up. So I do not recommend you do this with gas pistols. Gas rifles are an entirely different story. There is no danger there.

I doubt that I fire more than a couple of hundred jacketed bullets out of pistols in an entire year yet I fire thousands of lead bullets out of just about every one of my pistols no matter what the caliber or what the rifling is in the weapon.

 

[BHP9]

My response to Al was that a decently accurate pistol should show its accuracy with some type of lower priced ammo. While it MAY be an accurate gun with one type of premium ammo, its not worth the price of the good stuff to find out or the frustration of going back to shoot super inaccurate cheap stuff to practice with.

I agree 100 per cent with you Handy. That exactly why I use cast bullets. When using cheaper grade ammo you still have to lay out money to find the right cheaper grade stuff that will shoot in your particular weapon. To me this is still too much of a waste of money.

By simply changing powders or even bullet weight or style in a cast load you can always come up with a load that shoots as good as expensive match grade ammo and at a way, way cheaper price than even el-cheapo jackted stuff that usually shoots no where near the accuracy of a good cast bullet load..

Thousands of bullseye shooters use the cast bullet in every match and it is cheaper but at the same time very accurate. Its a case of having your cake and eating it too.

 

[Handy]

BHP9,

The problem with lead is that low velocity rounds, like .45ACP, will function great with most types of lead.

The rifle loads and supersonic 9mm loads you speak of really need to be hard cast to prevent leading. If the loader can strictly control hardness, maybe it's not a problem. But many reloaders by precast bullets, which aren't so hard. Then they load them to 1200 fps and the leading builds up quickly.

I agree the polygonal thing is something of a myth. Glock bores are really "cyclonic" (Glock's term) and have a noticeably more aggressive and angular profile than other polygonal bores. Put that together with softer lead and an afternoon's police training and you have the blown cop barrels that started this.

I used to shoot questionable lead reloads in a polygonal Baby Eagle 9mm with no problems. Polygonal 9mm bores have been in use since the early '70s at least, but the lead rumors didn't surface until after the Glock's intro.

Several years ago, my brother's Ruger MKII leaded up using inexpensive US ammo. This seems preposterous, but just goes to show that even in the best circumstances leading is possible. It didn't hurt a .22, but would have been disasterous at 9mm operating pressures.

I'm not subjecting my family to a lead smelting operation, so the savings between bought jacketed and bought lead bullets for 9mm is pointless. If I were to use lead at higher velocities and pressures, I would check the bore every 100 rounds; once the leading starts, it's going to build quickly.


What were YOU doing with Glock?

 

[BevrFevr]

I just don't see how shooting inaccurate ammo makes anyone a better shot.

I don't see how shooting cheap/expensive ammo makes one better either.

Cheap does not equal bad and expensive does not equal good. Only good equals good, regardless of cost.

I think that the more one shoots accurately the more accurately one shoots. Am I wrong on this?

-bevr

 

[BHP9]

The rifle loads and supersonic 9mm loads you speak of really need to be hard cast to prevent leading. If the loader can strictly control hardness, maybe it's not a problem. But many reloaders by precast bullets, which aren't so hard. Then they load them to 1200 fps and the leading builds up quickly.

Generally speaking leading should not be a problem until you approach speeds of 2,000 fps. Shooting 9mm at 1,200 fps should cause very little if any leadingproviding you do not use to fast a burning rate of powder combined with too great a quantity of it. This is one of the biggest mistakes people make in shooting lead. If you want super high velocity use a slower burning powder only if you experiece leading with your faster burning rate of powder.

I once tried everything under the sun to prevent leading in a new S&W .44 magnum shot with full power loads and even low power loads. The gun was literally coated with leading inside the barrel. This happened many, many years ago and I was just about to write off the .44 magnum as a very undesireable caliber for lead bullet shooting. Then just like John Browning, when he was watching people shoot trap one day and got the idea that gas could power a shotgun repeating action because he saw the gas pushing down the weeds in front of the shooters , I too suddenly leaped to my feet and yelled "Gad Zooks" I know now why my .44 magnum was leading like hell. I had just observed some people shooting factory .44 magnum loads with dead soft bullets at high velocity and guess what? No leading at all. Now I knew why. It was the powder. I went to a slower burning powder and even with dead soft bullets pushed at high speed ,1,200 fps and faster no leading whatsoever.

So this little flash of insight and experiment proved that A,. Soft bullets do not cause leading below speeds of 2,00o fps and B.too fast a burning powder will melt even hard cast bullets that even have gas checks on them.

I might add that it is ridiculous to shoot high power loads for practice. Its a waist of powder, its hard on the firearm and it is not conductive to good accurate shooting. The object of practice is to get better by refining the basics so why make things difficult by shooting high power loads. The more the recoil the less accurate you can shoot when speaking of shooting lots of rounds in practice. We are not talking about shooting a clip or two of high power super expensive death ray ammo. But we are talking of shooting a hundred or more rounds of ammo in practice.