Tex Grebner : SERPA : Bullets to the leg

[sturmgewehr]

I wanted to create a video about the SERPA holster and the incident where Tex Grebner accidentally shoots himself in the leg while using a Kimber 1911 in a SERPA belt holster. Here's the original video posted by Tex Grebner:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE

I've owned SERPA holsters for many years and I own 5 of them for various handguns. I'm always tempted by their low cost and what I believe to be ease of use. But I've also come to realize they have some inherent flaws.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDpxVG9XFJc

Questions and comments are welcome.

 

[Snowdog]

Well, I must say I'm impress that he was able to engage the safety before setting down his 1911.

He's fortunate that he was practicing with FMJ. SWC, that many practice with, would have likely taken out a chunk of flesh as it went.

 

[Onmilo]

Geezus here we go again.
The man repeatedly stated it WAS NOT the holster that caused the accident, It WAS his own misfortune.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=601482 Oh look whats that link?

He pulled the trigger, I trust my life to a Serpa holster and I'm wearing one right now with my XD40 in it. As I draw, no matter how hard I push the button, my finger is along side the trigger guard.

 

[sturmgewehr]

Geezus here we go again.
The man repeatedly stated it WAS NOT the holster that caused the accident, It WAS his own misfortune.

I've spoken to Tex on the phone about this mishap several times. While he does accept his part in the accident, he also recognizes that the SERPA contributed to the situation and thus you will never see another SERPA in one of his videos as he's told me he's done with them.

He didn't want to mention anything about the holster being unsafe in his video as he was fearful of the backlash, and rightly so. Some people are quick to ridicule, insult and taunt those that say something unfavorable about their brand of choice and Tex was fully aware of this and wished to avoid it. He knew he would be called an idiot for having the mishap, he didn't want to add fuel to the fire by mentioning any fault of the gear.

 

[FAS1]

Saw this today from Military Arms Channel and seams like a reasonable explanation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDpxVG9XFJc

 

[WinThePennant]

I think it's the 1911 platform. Once the thumb safety is off, and the finger is in the trigger guard, the trigger is way too sensitive.

DAO for me on defensive carry guns.

 

[sturmgewehr]

I think it's the 1911 platform. Once the thumb safety is off, and the finger is in the trigger guard, the trigger is way too sensitive.

DAO for me on defensive carry guns.

The 1911 certainly contributed to this situation. I love the 1911 but I also realize it's not a pistol for the novice or someone that practices infrequently with it. Put the 1911 in a SERPA, have little or no training with either and you're setting yourself up for a trip to the emergency room. A double action auto probably would have prevented this mishap.

 

[WinThePennant]

The 1911 certainly contributed to this situation. I love the 1911 but I also realize it's not a pistol for the novice or someone that practices infrequently with it. Put the 1911 in a SERPA, have little or no training with either and you're setting yourself up for a trip to the emergency room. A double action auto probably would have prevented this mishap.

Hey - I just subscribed to your YouTube channel.

 

[sturmgewehr]

I appreciate the sub.

 

[FAS1]

I wanted to create a video about the SERPA holster and the incident where Tex Grebner accidentally shoots himself in the leg while using a Kimber 1911 in a SERPA belt holster. Here's the original video posted by Tex Grebner:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE

I've owned SERPA holsters for many years and I own 5 of them for various handguns. I'm always tempted by their low cost and what I believe to be ease of use. But I've also come to realize they have some inherent flaws.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDpxVG9XFJc

Questions and comments are welcome.

Didn't realize it was the same one I posted. Saw it posted from MAC on FB. Your videos are well made and informative.

 

[sturmgewehr]

Thanks FAS1.

 

[0to60]

I have a probability-based philosophy when it comes to safety. If I store my expensive SLR camera on a table, then there is a possibility that it could fall to the ground. Am I careful around it? Yes. Do I make sure I don't knock it off the table? Yes. But there is still the possibility of it happening. If I store the camera on the floor, there is zero possibility of it falling to the floor. It simply cannot happen anymore. Probability = zero.

With the serpa holster, sure, you can take care not to do what Tex did. However, there is a possibility that it can happen. Tex is proof. He knows what he's doing. But because there is a nonzero probability, it can happen. In a holster where the rentention defeat is actuated by the thumb, there is a zero probability of what happened to Tex happening.

If we always pick the zero probability route, then we can preclude a lotta things from going wrong. After watching that video and then this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDpxVG9XFJc, I won't be buying another serpa holster. If you have one and you love it, great. But for me, I'll be going the zero-probability route.

 

[sturmgewehr]

Oto60,

Masterfully put.

That's why I deem the SERPA to be inherently more dangerous than other holsters. The SERPA does something that other holsters don't do, and that's force you to use your trigger finger to unlock the pistol from the holster. If you read the instructions for the holster, they warn you to use only the pad of your finger and they over emphasize getting proper training and not carrying a fully loaded weapon unless you're military/LEO with their holster.

BLACKHAWK! Law Enforcement® Carbon Fiber Holsters are
intended primarily for law enforcement and military applications
by law enforcement and military personnel trained and certified
by their agency or branch of service in the use of holsters and the
carry and use of handguns. It is recommended that non-military
and non-law enforcement personnel never attempt to holster or
carry a sidearm in a ready-to-fire condition.

Here's where they discuss being careful not to use the tip of your finger when unlocking the pistol from the holster:

To remove the weapon, merely apply pressure against the finger activation
platform with the extended (no-reason-to-bend) index
finger in order to disengage the SERPA Active Retention System
and then draw the weapon upward and outward out of the holster
body.

They stop short of saying it's unsafe to bend or curl your finger to engage the lock release, but as we can see in the video where I demonstrate what can happen, it is unsafe.

 

[mgmorden]

Not the fault of the holster, not the fault of the gun. He messed up. Glad he's ok, but realistically, despite him being confused about the sequence, he disengaged the safety on his gun, and pulled it out of the holster in a careless fashion.

I've used and will continue to use Serpa holsters (as well as similar products from IMI Defense - they have a very similar push-button release). When used correctly, there is no danger. "When used correctly" might sound like a cop-out, but realistically, it applies to ALL THINGS GUN RELATED. When any part of the package is used incorrectly, you're opening yourself up to possible ND's and injury. Know your equipment and be careful.

 

[Frozen North]

Trying to do things super fast and super cool usually ends up making you look like a super idiot.... 1911 triggers demand respect, he just learned some. If you put your booger hook on the bang button, the gun goes bang. The holster and the gun did their part, his finger was clearly on the trigger before he was on target. He needs to learn to pay attention to what he is doing before he tries to be Quick Draw McGraw.

This is what happens when you get too comfortable with firearms.

Now remember that guns with a manual safety are safer than guns with none.

The mush between your ears is the safety, not the holster, not a thumb lever, not a heavy DAO trigger.

 

[Ankeny]

That's the first time I have seen the video. The slow motion replay tells the story. He drew the gun, depressed the grip safety, thumb safety presumably off, then he pulled the trigger. Same thing would have happened drawing from a one ton Liberty gun safe.

 

[wally]

and the finger is in the trigger guard,

This is the real problem!

Can happen with Glocks and DAO too if you try to holster with the finger in the trigger guard.

But his was on the draw and not on re-holstering, the thumb safety should still be on, and the finger out of the trigger guard at this point of the draw. Operator error plain and simple, facilitated by a change in equipment.

He knew he would be called an idiot for having the mishap

He deserves a lot of credit for sharing this -- its a great wake up call! Not sure why he'd want to have both a thumb retention and an index finger retention holster, seems you need to pick one or the other and stick with it!

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

When my defensive handgun was a Hi Power, I flicked the safety off right after clearing the holster and I never shot myself. Theres no real difference between doing as you draw and when you're on target. If you're relying on the safety to keep you from shooting yourself than you need retraining.

 

[TexasBill]

The only Serpa holster I own is for my S&W M637 snubbie. I have never adjusted the holster to forward cant, in fact, most of the time, it's canted to the rear and open-carried (IMHO, the Blackhawk Serpa isn't a concealment holster unless you're wearing a parka). The rest of the time, it's straight up-and-down. When I draw the revolver, my trigger finger always ends up on the frame above the trigger due to the location of the release button.

I have a similar holster for my SIG Mosquito. It's never caused me any problems, either.

However, if I was ever to buy an M1911-style pistol, I would probably not get any of the retention-style holsters: I would get a good leather holster with a thumb-break. Of course, if Texas ever passed open carry, I probably would have to re-think my ideas on sidearm and holster.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

The gun and the holster contributed to the problem? Neither did anything wrong. Failure to manipulate both correctly was the problem.

I saw what happened when a kid tried to shift an automatic transmission (put in 2nd to pull a trailer out of the woods) into 3rd gear on an old truck after getting onto the blacktop. He learned with 3 on the tree and in a moment of stress, tried the shift like it was a standard 3 on the tree transmission. The wheels locked and the truck and trailer jackknifed, damaging both.

Did the location of the gear shift contribute to this problem? Did the transmission? How about the trailer? All were normal and functional before the accident. What changed was the driver's mindset. His actions were inappropriate in regard to what he was doing and he tried manipulate an automatic transmission like it was a standard under a moment of stress.

Old Tex tried to manipulate a Serpa holster like a 5.11.

Was the trailer the problem with the truck? It was part of the wreck because of user error resulting in a loss of control.

Was the 1911 the problem with the holster? It was part of the discharge because of user error resulting in a loss of control.

Bottom line? If you mishandle your tools, you can damage them or get hurt. Blaming the tools does not correct the user problem. Tex got confused about what holster he was wearing in a moment of stress. He manipulated his gun while trying to release his holster, disengaging the safety. He claims a first attempt at drawing (I could not see in the video) and realized his problem and attempted a second time (again under stress and not thinking through the problem as he was trying to go fast with the wrong gear), overcompensated, blew a hole in his leg.

In the airline industry, this would have been a cascade accident. That means, the discharge would not have occurred had one or more of the faults in the event series not occurred. They all had to come together for this to happen and they came together as a result of multiple mental failures on the part of Tex.

 

[sturmgewehr]

Here's an example of a training organization and their detailed reason for their decision not to allow SERPA's on their ranges.

http://www.wilsontacticaltraining.com/?p=326

People that think because they've never had a problem with the SERPA that no one else has either, despite the growing evidence to the contrary. The SERPA works for some people and for others it doesn't work well at all. I believe that any holster that forces you to use your trigger finger to push towards the trigger to release it from retention is going to be a problem for some people.

The other major problem I see is that people buy SERPA holsters due to their low price and wide spread availability and never so much as read the instruction manual. Worse, many rarely practice with the SERPA or receive formal training. Blackhawk mentions in their instruction manual that the holster should only be used by military and LEO personnel with formal training if the weapon is to be carried loaded. They warn against using any part of the index finger other than the pad. For those that buy the holster, put it on and walk out of the store, never get training and rarely practice (properly) are fiddling with disaster.

I've demonstrated how the index finger can easily wind up on the trigger of pistols like the 1911 when improperly using the SERPA. This type of mistake has led to numerous AD's on ranges, hence the decision by several top trainers to abandon the SERPA. It's also worth noting that the people having the AD's aren't just novices, but others who are what many would consider to be properly trained LEO's and military personnel.

I never was injured by lawn darts as a kid growing up in the 1980's, but that doesn't mean others weren't injured or that the toy was a safe design.

 

[w2fnt]

Let's be honest here. The dude shot himself in the leg by being stupid. It has been said that you just can't fix stupid. That said, the military training I got years ago was quite sufficient. The is the end where bullet comes out of so point that at what you want to shoot. This is the bang switch and just keep your booger hook off it until you want to make it go bang and send one of them bullets out.

I mean come on people we are not talking rocket science here. Guns were designed to kill people and things. As Kalashnikov ONCE stated in broken English " IS GUN, NOT SAFE".

 

[WinThePennant]

In my view, anything that unnecessarily increases the probability of failure should be avoided.

Yes, almost every single instance of a gun accident is the fault of the shooter. Humans are error prone, however, and that must be taken into the equation. Even the best trained are still subject to making mistakes.

For me, I like to take all reasonable precautions that will reduce the likelihood of me making a mistake with my gun. The single best thing I can think of is to only use DAO or DA/SA pistols.

 

[sturmgewehr]

You can add Todd Green to the growing list of trainers who have spoken out against the SERPA:

http://pistol-training.com/archives/4935