Tex Grebner : SERPA : Bullets to the leg

[WinThePennant]

If I had a dime for every time someone said "keep your booger hook off the bang switch," then I'd be a rich man.

 

[w2fnt]

Well if you have not shot yourself yet, I guess you were paying attention then! Right!

 

[Onmilo]

A properly functioning 1911 handgun isn't going to go off until you;
1. grip down on the grip safety
2. wipe the manual safety off with your thumb

I don't care what digit or digits are needed to unlock whatever retention method a holster uses, a properly maintained and properly functioning 1911 ain't gonna fire until you do those two things.

Do those two things with the weapon in the holster and I guarantee you are going to shoot yourself at some point.

The man screwed up, admitted he screwed up, and people are STILL trying to blame the holster.

 

[possum]

Many training companies don't allow Serpa's in courses anymore, one in particular which is pretty well known just started allowing them back in recently after years of not allowing them in classes.

I was in complete shock and awe when Tex didn't immediately vaporize when he was shot with a .45acp, and the fact that he was still standing...........

 

[ErikO]

The only comment I have is this guy never should buy a lottery ticket after that, his luck has been spent.

 

[mgmorden]

If I had a dime for every time someone said "keep your booger hook off the bang switch," then I'd be a rich man.

Indeed. Despite the validity of the statement too it's a very crude and disgusting saying. Just personally I find no need to portray us (gun owners) as any less base and crude than the public already views us.

There's nothing wrong with just saying "keep your finger off the trigger". No need to try and get cutesy with it.

 

[Sean Smith]

I have a probability-based philosophy when it comes to safety. If I store my expensive SLR camera on a table, then there is a possibility that it could fall to the ground. Am I careful around it? Yes. Do I make sure I don't knock it off the table? Yes. But there is still the possibility of it happening. If I store the camera on the floor, there is zero possibility of it falling to the floor. It simply cannot happen anymore. Probability = zero.

With the serpa holster, sure, you can take care not to do what Tex did. However, there is a possibility that it can happen. Tex is proof. He knows what he's doing. But because there is a nonzero probability, it can happen. In a holster where the rentention defeat is actuated by the thumb, there is a zero probability of what happened to Tex happening.

If we always pick the zero probability route, then we can preclude a lotta things from going wrong. After watching that video and then this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDpxVG9XFJc, I won't be buying another serpa holster. If you have one and you love it, great. But for me, I'll be going the zero-probability route.

Spot on. The guy is responsible for his actions, but that doesn't mean the holster design didn't increase the risk of a mishap. Put another way, a different holster design would have given him more margin for error.

It's telling that so many professional trainers ban the holster; I'm pretty sure they know more about gun handling than the internet commandos pooh-pooing the idea the holster is an inherently questionable design.

 

[mgmorden]

Put another way, a different holster design would have given him more margin for error.

A different gun may have prevented it too. If they added a second manual safety ahead of the trigger guard that couldn't be accessed until the gun was deholstered the accident never would have happened! See where that logic eventually lands?

Reallistically, every time someone "accidentally" does something like this you can look at the area that they didn't touch the gun or rig and find some other combination where the problem woudln't have occured. The problem is that anyone who averts disaster due to something like that "saving" them is very likely to see it happen on some other platform where its not there.

If you don't want to the gun to go off, KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER. That's the only way to be safe. No change in holster, gun, or anything else changes that basic rule.

As to the "professional trainers", far more often what I've seen from that group is basically internet commandos that decided to open up a class. The 4 basic rules of gun safety came about long before the internet. Acknowledging them isn't some new fanagled idea.

 

[Sean Smith]

As to the "professional trainers", far more often what I've seen from that group is basically internet commandos that decided to open up a class.

Like Larry Vickers, who has banned them at his training classes along with Gunsite?

 

[sturmgewehr]

If you don't want to the gun to go off, KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER. That's the only way to be safe. No change in holster, gun, or anything else changes that basic rule.

The only problem is that the SERPA forces the user to press inwards towards the trigger with their trigger finger to release the firearm from retention. That makes it difficult for some users to keep their finger off the trigger depending on how they apply that pressure.

Watch the video I posted in the OP, it demonstrates how easy it is to press down with the trigger finger thereby landing it directly on the trigger as the pistol clears the holster.

 

[mgmorden]

The only problem is that the SERPA forces the user to press inwards towards the trigger with their trigger finger to release the firearm from retention. That makes it difficult for some users to keep their finger off the trigger depending on how they apply that pressure.

Watch the video I posted in the OP, it demonstrates how easy it is to press down with the trigger finger thereby landing it directly on the trigger as the pistol clears the holster.

I own a Serpa - I'm familiar with them. The thing is if you have ANY instinct to curl your finger during a draw it's going to bit you eventually, REGARDLESS of holster design. Your trigger finger should be straight as an arrow during the draw (and nothing about the Serpa requires that the finger bend at all) and if it isn't, that habit WILL bite you eventually. Doesn't matter if you're using a Serpa, Fobus, Bladetech, or basketweave leather holster. Curlng the finger into the triggerguard on draw is a problem regardless of your holster design.

 

[Sean Smith]

mgmorden, you aren't arguing in good faith, you're just blindly supporting a product you bought. The holster by design subverts the user's following the 4 rules by having the mother-loving trigger finger bang away at something to draw the gun. So many experienced trainers shun it because it's one of those things that look like something a hardcore commando would use, but in reality is often more trouble than it's worth if you give it any thought.

Put another way, the "internet commando" is you.

 

[mgmorden]

It's one of many holsters I've bought. The trigger finger does actuate the release but there is no need to BEND the trigger finger during that release. If you are keeping the trigger finger straight (as you ALWAYS should be - regardless of holster design) then it's not an issue at all.

As to your "commando" reference, that's pretty far from the truth. I'm not into the tacticool crowd and the vast majority of my guns are wooden stocked bolt action rifles. I didn't buy a Serpa because it looked cool, "hardcore", or tactical. I bought it because it fits the gun I use it on well and holds it securely. It also poses no issue when you draw like you're supposed to from any other holster.

This guy screwed up and shot himself in the leg. Don't be so naive as to think that it's the holster's fault, or that anyone else is being reckless by using one.

 

[sturmgewehr]

It's one of many holsters I've bought. The trigger finger does actuate the release but there is no need to BEND the trigger finger during that release. If you are keeping the trigger finger straight (as you ALWAYS should be - regardless of holster design) then it's not an issue at all.

I'm curious, did you watch the video in the OP?

If did watch the video (second link), I'm a bit perplexed at how you didn't catch that for some people the lock doesn't fit their hands, like me. My finger is long enough that the lock touches the area between my two knuckles. It's kind of hard to push a recessed button with the middle of your finger.

Not only that, when the holster fails to release because the operator is pulling up on it while trying to hit the button (like Tex), the holster won't release thereby causing the natural instinct to apply more pressure. To apply more pressure, people tend to try and gain more leverage, in this case they curl their finger, like Tex did.

Other holsters don't force this to happen. It's something the SERPA does because it requires you to use your trigger finger to release the lock vs. you being able to stick it out straight and forget about it until the sights are on target. That's why so many AD's occur with it and with a wide variety of users both amateur and professional.

 

[NMBrian]

It was user error. End of story.

The holster functioned as intended but was used improperly with poor technique.

 

[chhodge69]

When I first bought a 1911 and shopped for holsters I didn't need Tex to demonstrate that SERPA was not a good choice for me. They violate KISS with their moving parts and "don't do this" warnings. Well, so does my 1911... but that's for another thread.

 

[marb4]

When I first saw the "Tex video" it really kind of shook me up and made me realize that the moment you become too comfortable is the moment you become complacent. That's the moment where disaster is lurking. It really caused me to refocus on basic firearm safety not only with myself but also with my sons who shoot with me often.

Specifically to the SERPA holster. I've been using one with my Beretta 92FS for a little while and honestly never really considered the potential danger caused by pressing the release button in regards to trigger finger position. Granted with a 92FS the pistol would be holstered decocked with the hammer down. The first DA pull is quite heavy. Certainly much heavier than a cocked 1911. This would reduce the risk of light pressure on the trigger causing an accidental discharge. At any rate, after watching the video I did some practice drawing my unloaded 92 from the SERPA and sure enough, I found that on occasion during a quick draw my finger would end up in the trigger guard area prematurely. Since I want to give myself (and my sons) every safety advantage I can I decided to go with a more traditional holster with a thumb released retention strap. Thankfully my oldest son had a 92FS airsoft gun that fits in the SERPA perfectly! I don't intend to bash the SERPA design but I found that at least for me personally it reduced my margin for error and thus increased my chances for something really bad to occur.

As for Tex, I don't know him nor am I all that familiar with his videos but I've got to give him credit for manning up, admitting his mistake, and putting it out there for all of us to consider and possibly learn from.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Put another way, the "internet commando" is you.

You're really gonna say that about those with Serpa holsters? I have and use one everyday on my hip, I'm still yet, no matter how fast I draw, to have my finger slip into the trigger guard and my finger is always flat against the frame. Those blaming the fact that he flipped the safety off with his draw was part of the problem are wrong, what if it was a Glock that has no safety? The Serpa holster is actually used by the US Military and if were really a problem then they wouldn't have adopted it.

 

[Ankeny]

I'm pretty sure they know more about gun handling than the internet commandos pooh-pooing the idea the holster is an inherently questionable design.

As an internet commando, let me toss in my two cents worth. I bought a couple of Serpa holsters awhile back, one for a 1911 and one for a Glock 19. I tried and tried to become proficient with the release mechanism, but try as I might I couldn't make myself jab around at the release with my trigger finger...it is just plain counter intuitive for me. I suppose that could be because I have been dry firing with an IPSC race rig 3-5 times a week for the last 11 years. There was also some growing concern with the tactical crowd shortly after the introduction of the Serpa regarding the Serpa mechanism becoming blocked with debris and failing to release. Whether that notion has any merit is beyond my pay grade.

Long story short, I threw the Serpa for the 1911 in the trash can. The other Serpa was modified by filing away at the retention mechanism until the pistol could be removed without depressing the release. That holster rarely sees any use.

FWIW, as a Grandmaster internet commando, I have no use what-so-ever for a Serpa holster and I would never recommend one to anyone, not even an enemy. Still, folks who have had ND's with a Serpa need to take ownership for their actions.

As far as the Serpa possibly contributing to an ND by requiring the user to manipulate his/her trigger finger in close proximity to the trigger at an inappropriate time (during the draw stroke), that seems like enough reason for any trainer to keep them off their range. As for adoption by the military I suppose their selection criteria is different from mine. That doesn't make either of us right or wrong. Just different.

 

[KenW.]

I have used the Serpa for many years now; Several 1911s and XDs have been carried on a daily basis due to my profession (not all at once, silly). I will continue to use one for the foreseeable future. When so-called "experts" at training schools don't allow them, it just reinforces my choice.

I have yet to find my finger go into the trigger guard unintentionaly. Thousands of draw-strokes don't lie.

You can't blame an inanimate object like a holster or a pistol for unintentional discharges. If they're that dangerous, lets send them to the cartels.

 

[Frozen North]

If you backed out of your garage in a hurried reckless way and backed over a kid, no one would be blaming the tires on your mini van.

He wiped the safety off, stuck his finger in the trigger guard, pulled the trigger, and shot himself in the leg. He did this horrible draw in a hurried and reckless way to achieve super fastness I guess. Worrying about speed before technique is mastered is asking for trouble.

I argue that his horrible draw would have resulted in a shot leg or foot in any holster.

He says he got confused about the gun and holster? Maybe he should have been paying closer attention to what he was doing or avoided the quick draw all together that day.

 

[stonecutter2]

mgmorden, you aren't arguing in good faith, you're just blindly supporting a product you bought. The holster by design subverts the user's following the 4 rules by having the mother-loving trigger finger bang away at something to draw the gun. So many experienced trainers shun it because it's one of those things that look like something a hardcore commando would use, but in reality is often more trouble than it's worth if you give it any thought.

Put another way, the "internet commando" is you.

To be fair to the SERPA design, you don't have to bang away with your mother lovin' trigger finger to get the gun to release. If you do, your holster is defective and send it back to SERPA.

My SERPA releases the pistol reliably by gliding my finger alongside the release button, no real pressure or pushing is necessary on the switch. Just the very act of running your finger over the switch actuates it. In no way does my finger ever have to be pointing towards the pistol. It always remains straight.

What I saw in Tex's video was improper technique for the holster Tex was using for a quick draw, and if he doesn't like the holster because he didn't use it properly and he injured himself, then he doesn't have to use it. I completely understand if trainers choose to ban it, as it's their training course and their choice of instruction.

The OP's video demonstrates only that if you don't understand how the holster works, and you try to unholster the pistol, jam on the switch for some apparent reason, then try to unholster again, your finger can be in a bad place. If you don't know how to safely operate anything to do with guns, ask the manufacturer.

I like my SERPA for how certain the retaining mechanism is.

If I were doing quick draw stuff like Tex was doing in the video, I have no idea why I'd choose a SERPA holster as actuating the mechanism itself will just slow you down to some degree.

 

[Carter]

The first time I used a serpa it was with a 1911 during my first 3 gun match. I'm not a 1911 guy, and rarely if ever use one. It was a fast and high stress environment. I made sure my thumb was NOT touching the safety when I was pulling the holster out, and that my trigger finger never entered the trigger guard. Just because you're moving fast doesn't mean you can't control your body or what your fingers do. If thats the case, you are moving too fast, and accidents will happen in any area when doing that.

That said, I can see how the serpa increases the risk of a ND with someone who doesn't train with their gear or follow proper safety procedure.

My CZ thigh holster has a similar retention method as a serpa except that the finger release (which is in the same place) requires you to push the release down with the the part of your finger closest to the knuckle. Thus, it pushes your finger tip away from the trigger/trigger guard. I prefer that to the serpa requiring you to use the tip of your trigger finger.

Blackhawk mentions in their instruction manual that the holster should only be used by military and LEO personnel with formal training if the weapon is to be carried loaded

That statement is bull, except for the proper training part. Its meant to cover their butts from being sued. Some of the stupidest things I've seen were from LEO's. Just because someone is in LE or the military doesn't mean they are better suited to using a particular item. Most LEO's probably only use their gear twice a year for qualification. Proper training (whether its just you on the range or at a class) is key, not ones profession.

 

[451 Detonics]

No matter what you say about the holster and it's design the facts are the safety was off and his finger pulled the trigger all while the gun was pointed at himself. If he had adhered to the principal of finger off the trigger till the sights are on the target (or if point shooting, the barrel is pointed at the target) then this would not have happened. I cannot find any fault in the holster, it did not make the gun go off, the user did.

 

[GLOOB]

The holster held his gun, securely. The gun fired when he pulled the trigger. All good.

He admits his finger didn't slip. He was practicing with a break strap holster, so he thought he had "broken the strap" and was already pulling the trigger before even getting the gun out of the holster. He was running off muscle memory, and his draw, aim, fire went all out of order when the gun didn't release from the holster when he thought it should.

If you think his finger slipped, look at the slow motion. He pulls the trigger and keeps it pulled even as he finally gets around to aiming the gun. That's a slip of the mind, not the finger.

This is a lesson. Finger straight along side of frame. Point gun and finger at target. Then pull trigger. Don't get a head start by getting your finger on the trigger while aiming (or thinking you're aiming while the gun is still stuck in the holster). Quick draw without deliberate adherence to the 4 gun safety rules is inherently dangerous. Even cowboys recognized this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAvBB2lv8iw&feature=related