Tex Grebner : SERPA : Bullets to the leg

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Rinspeed, try pulling an semi-auto from leather with snap-break button and then TRYa Serpa, guarantee it's faster out of the Serpa and finger-indexing is more consistent,
As far as WHY ,, The first time your pistol magically "jumps" out of holster you'll see it differently,, IMO
 
I have no clue why someone would want one, maybe some of you that use a Serpa could elaborate on exactly what they are supposed to do for you.
Simple, the Serpa has a retention mechanism that keeps you from losing the gun in dynamic situations including, robust physical activity, someone trying to grab the gun, etc.
 
I don't understand why people would opt for a retention device on a holster when they were not mandated that they have too.

I was actually thinking about getting a SERPA. I don't know if I will now. Usually the only time I open carry is when I go deer hunting. It doesn't really seem wise to me to open carry without any retention. The only holster I own that has a retention devise is for my old Dan Wesson .357. which I actually like to carry if I am hunting where I know there are black bear or hogs around. Any other time I would prefer to carry my XD-40. I guess I may to see what other options are out there.
 
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Serpa holsters are junk! Any holster that can malfunction and lock your gun in and you can't get it out, should be recalled. But the gun wont fire itself, so you cant blame the serpa on that

The holster didn't malfunction. It has a retention mechanism (a release button) that he did not press. When he went to curl his finger into the trigger guard (BEFORE he was on target - the root of the problem here) he hit the release, the gun came out - like it is supposed to - and his finger jammed onto the trigger.

The retention mechanism isn't supposed to let go until it is activated, in order to increase the difficultly of someone just grabbing the gun and disarming you. In this case the holster 100% behaved *exactly* the way it was supposed to. The shooter is what malfunctioned.

Sorry, I was talking about another incident.....The lock had malfed on a guy, and couldn't draw. A video is somewhere on this i'll look for it, also a failure was easily induced by rolling in the snow before drawing(non draw in this case)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htigDRr7tdM
The failure during a handgun training class, has been removed from youtube, but if theres a chance of my holster locking up, no way will I use one!
 
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When the button didn't work I pushed and pulled harder.
Ah, I think I see the problem. ^THIS is a dangerous thing to do, and I thought it was obvious. But apparently it's not.

The holster is designed to retain the gun. The harder you pull, the more difficult it is to depress the lever. It's simple physics. This is a locking retention device, not a friction fit. You have to (very lightly) push the lever before you pull on the gun. If that isn't obvious, take a more thorough look at the holster next time.

I am pressing down on the gun while I locate and press the button. Then draw. I thought this was obvious. It's the same with a thumb break, holster. At least for me. I break thumb strap during the downward motion, then lift the gun handle. So perhaps if you think of the lever press as a downward/inward press, this might decrease the chance of user error.

Now, I agree some people will have problems using this holster quickly. I also think the button should be placed a little higher up, farther from the trigger.
 
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I don't understand why people would opt for a retention device on a holster when they were not mandated that they have too. IE LEO's etc. If I have the choice (which I do) I carry an open top kydex, no retention strap, button, thumb break etc. They have their place, however not for me in the context of daily carry.

It secures the gun with one hand fast without having to redo the snap and better prevents a gun grab when open carrying.
 
This is why I love Kydex like Ravens Concealment. Easy to reholster, simple draw. Easy to adjust, custom mold, custom cut.

A heatgun/hairdryer and a thumb is all you need to adjust retension. Allthough they usually come with too much. I usually have to loosen them up a bit.
 
Or he could have followed Cooper's third rule of safe gun handling.
Please watch the video I posted.

It's kind of hard to follow the 3rd rule when the holster you're using forces you to press inwards towards the trigger to release the pistol from retention. You're flirting with disaster in a high stress situation when this happens. That's why so many accidents happen with the SERPA and why it's banned from so many training courses.

Again, watch the video I posted, I explain exactly how the trigger finger winds up on the trigger of a pistol when some people flub the draw using a SERPA.
 
Please watch the video I posted.

It's kind of hard to follow the 3rd rule when the holster you're using forces you to press inwards towards the trigger to release the pistol from retention. You're flirting with disaster in a high stress situation when this happens. That's why so many accidents happen with the SERPA and why it's banned from so many training courses.

Again, watch the video I posted, I explain exactly how the trigger finger winds up on the trigger of a pistol when some people flub the draw using a SERPA.
__________________
Please visit my YouTube channel for reviews, tests and more!

I just realized that was your video I posted above.:D
 
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Rinspeed, try pulling an semi-auto from leather with snap-break button and then TRYa Serpa, guarantee it's faster out of the Serpa and finger-indexing is more consistent,
As far as WHY ,, The first time your pistol magically "jumps" out of holster you'll see it differently,, IMO




Just an opinion but I just think some of you need to experience a good quality leather holster. On all the ones I own there is no pistols that magically jump out and none of them have a goofy snap break. :confused:
 
Horrible design for a holster. Using your trigger finger to trigger the release mechanism, located right where the trigger is located, is a recipe for disaster.
 
Horrible design for a holster. Using your trigger finger to trigger the release mechanism, located right where the trigger is located, is a recipe for disaster.
Right about now is when someone comes along and gives the obligatory incantation: "Just keep your booger hook away from the bang switch, and all will be fine."
 
...also a failure was easily induced by rolling in the snow before drawing(non draw in this case)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htigDRr7tdM
Dunno about this. I've seen this vid, and the guy is yanking on the gun before he pushes the button whenever the holster didn't work. This will prevent the button from pressing even on a clean Serpa. Then he knocks the holster on the ground a couple times muzzle down (where's the snow supposed to go when he does this?), and the holster magically works? Don't think so. If snow was packed in there that hard, it would still be in there.

Back to the OP. I honestly think the guys who have done this were not adhering to #3. Or the signals got crossed, and they confused the action of releasing the holster with "time to press the trigger.. oops button.. oops bang." Or maybe it's just different on my particular gun (Glock). But the only way I could get the striker to fall was when I deliberately tried to pull the trigger.

It takes 1 lb of force to push the Serpa button. You cannot accidentally pull the trigger with 1 lb of force. If the holster doesn't release, don't press it harder. Press it more correctly. Adhere to rule 3. Be careful with firearms and know your gear. If you're not comfortable with it, then use something else.

It's kind of easy to follow the 3rd rule when the holster you're using forces you to press inwards towards the frame to release the pistol from retention. You're flirting with disaster in any high stress situation that requires drawing a gun, so anyone that can't maintain good gun safety in a training exercise will be !#&#ed in the real thing, anyway.
Made some corrections.
 
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Gloob, as I am the guy in the video I can honestly say you're mistaken on all counts regarding your assessment of the SERPA and snow video.
 
Your "corrections" ring hollow when I clearly show in my video how the index finger can in fact fall straight to the trigger when the tip of the finger is used.
 
[Edited for clarity]

If snow locks the button, fine. I'll assume that's the case.

But it looks like you are pulling on the gun, first, then pushing the button second. I apologize if that's not the case, but please read on and try your finger test again, anyway.

the index finger can in fact fall straight to the trigger when the tip of the finger is used.
With my Glock and my hand, I can also get the finger to fall on the trigger when I use the tip of the finger and press down and in... while pulling on the gun. So I don't do any of those things, let alone all three at a time. Try pushing the button while pushing the handle of the gun into the holster. Push the darn button as hard as you can, finger curled as much as you want, but not pulling on the handle. Then draw. See if you can pull the trigger by accident.

When you are pulling on the gun, 2 things happen. 1. The button sticks, and when it releases it does so abruptly and only with greater force. 2. The gun shoots out, and because of the pulling force, the pressure on the frontstrap is greater than the backstrap. The gun literally shoots out, and it not under complete control for a split second. So you a) instinctively grab it, curling your fingers. And b) no longer have control over the relative position of your finger to the trigger.
 
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If you watch my OP video you will see me demonstrating how pulling on the pistol in the holster locks the gun in the holster. I mention it's by design and is part of the retention. In other words, I know how the holster works.

I also know what a SERPA feels like when the latch binds because I've caused it to happen. The gun wasn't stuck in the holster because I was pulling on it.

You admit the SERPA does in fact line the trigger finger up with the trigger when the tip of the finger is used. So you see how it can happen. That simple difference, pad vs. tip, can mean the difference between a safe draw and a potentially fatal one... Doesn't that seem like a liability for less experienced users which many people are?
 
You edited my comments to change the meaning then said you made "some corrections".

That's what my comments addressed.
 
I'll be the first to say that you don't solve a skill issue with equipment, but it's sure easy to induce a skill issue with the wrong equipment. With the Serpa it seems you have to develop the skill of releasing the weapon with your trigger finger and be sure that it doesn't end up on the trigger during the draw. The question is, "Are you willing to develop this skill just to have this holster?"
 
You edited my comments to change the meaning then said you made "some corrections".

That's what my comments addressed.
Thanks. I figured it out and deleted that comment. And I do in fact see the potential for problems with this holster. It's my favorite OWB holster, nonetheless.

You admit the SERPA does in fact line the trigger finger up with the trigger when the tip of the finger is used. So you see how it can happen. That simple difference, pad vs. tip, can mean the difference between a safe draw and a potentially fatal one... Doesn't that seem like a liability for less experienced users which many people are?
Yes, I see a potential problem. But please see my added comments to my previous post and try for yourself. When done correctly, without pulling, it doesn't matter if I use the pad or the tip. I can't get my finger in the trigger guard with my particular gun. That surprise release when the gun shoots out seems to be one of the main factors. Yeah, someone could screw that up, still.
 
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I have looked at the Serpa holsters before and rejected the design as I would any holster that uses the trigger finger for release of the gun. Even the idea of such a thing seems unsafe and unsound to me. A design I do like however is Safariland's level III retention holster. That uses the thumb and middle finger to release retention devices almost forcing the trigger finger to remain straight along the weapon's frame as it comes out of the holster.
 
I think it took a lot of guts, humility and concern for fellow shooters for Tex Grebner to take the heat just so others can learn from his unfortunate nd and I applaud him for it. And, yes, he was certainly culpable to a degree for shooting himself and I can't see where he's ever said otherwise.

As a requirement of my job for thirty years, I wore a handgun of one kind or another in one kind of a holster or another for just about every day of those thirty years and never did find an occasion to shoot myself or anybody else that didn't need shooting. From a flap holster covering my 1911 while serving in the military police for four years to a Bianchi snap-open thumb break I was wearing at the time of my retirement, I've had experience with a variety of leather and have long understood the importance of using a well-made holster that holds your weapon securely while allowing instant access to the gun. Unfortunately, like so many other things in life (canoes and photography come to mind), there is a "law of reciprocity" we all have to reckon with when choosing a holster-to get one thing, you'll have to give up another; to gain speed of draw, you'll have to give up a degree of retention security and vice-versa.

I've looked at the videos provided and have read the many posts in this thread and to me, though I generally loath blaming the arrow for the Indian's (oops, I mean Native American's) mistake, the conclusion is inescapable: the Serpa is ergonomically predisposed to abet an nd. It's an unforgiving design that might work fine for those willing to put the obligatory training time into adapting to its idiosyncracies but I can certainly understand why trainers are reluctant to have the Serpa worn and used by students and trainees who, almost by definition, are not so well trained.

The Serpa seems unnecessarily complicated. Why use it when there are so many other simpler and intrinsically safer designs available?
 
been using and will continue to use a serpa level 3 security holster for duty with my sig.

I train with it and find the design to be sound and much prefer this system/design over a safriland 070.

the argument of dedicated training with the holster rings true........and it is the exact same argument about training with a 1911 or a browning HP......and we have all heard those arguments before about how unsafe those weapons systems are which is why so many depts do not allow single actions because of concerns in stressful situtations with a dangerous cocked gun with a "hair trigger"........

those experienced with the 1911 design can certainly and with much rational thought win most arguments concerning safety issues. The serpa holster is no different...

it is a training issue.

by the way, that safriland 070 was "state of the art" back then for security holsters......and if i remember correctly, it even mentioned practice drawing with an unloaded weapon at least 100 times to develop muscle memory and to keep practicing. Good advice with any holster.....

To each his own........i will stay with the serpa.....
 
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