TX CHL Compliance ?

[Heraclitus]

I had the same question regarding state parks. Texas law forbade CCWs on park grounds until 1998 (see http://www.tsra.com/TPWRules.htm).

It's a good thing too. Bentsen State Park is not a place you'd wanna visit "naked" in off season. Nevermind the Chupacabras.

 

[csmkersh]

There were some changes to the CHL laws that went into effect 1 Sept 1997. This is what brought about the changes in TP&WL rules.

As to going "naked," I'm always fully dressed and well heeled before I leave the bedroom for breakfast. I pack even at home.

Here's a good article on home carry: http://www.tsra.com/aagaard.htm Some of us old farts remember Finn as a White Hunter many moons ago...

 

[Sam Adams]

Sam Kersh

If you see a resturant or package store with a 51% percent sign, report it to TABC. It will be pulled normally within two business days.

Do you have the number for TABC? The Cheesecake Factory in Northstar Mall has one of these signs (though only on the parking lot side - the mall entrance doesn't have it, so that's where I will always enter from ).

 

[csmkersh]

SAN ANTONIO REGIONAL OFFICE
4203 Woodcock Drive, Suite 120
San Antonio, Texas 78228-1372
VOICE: (210) 731-1720
FAX: (210) 731-1759

For the State, here is the page for locating your regional office.

http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/contact/default.htm

 

[Sam Adams]

csmkersh

Thanks, I've called and left a message about it. I'll let you know the results when I know them.

 

[CZSteve]

Has been some good info.

What caused me to review the CHL Rulebook was a result of the Gorrila escape at the Dallas Zoo. Had noticed the additional forementioned sentence that seemed contradictory, but had forgotten about till the other day.

Regarding various zoos around the state; has anyone noticed any 30.06 signs being posted?
I'm assuming most/all zoos are city intities and as a result of SB501 they have no authority to deny a licensed CHL the right to carry.


Sam Adams wrote regarding 51% signage:

Do you have the number for TABC? The Cheesecake Factory in Northstar Mall has one of these signs

Maybe they make cheesecake the way my grandma makes rum balls and the signage is correct???

 

[Sam Adams]

I spoke to a TABC agent yesterday, and he said he'd investigate. He didn't say that he'd get back to me, so I'll check the CF when I go to Northstar the next time.

BTW, the 51% refers to sales, not profits. I still find it hard to believe, as they sell a LOT of food and it isn't cheap (nor is it too expensive).

 

[csmkersh]

Sam Adams wrote:

BTW, the 51% refers to sales, not profits. I still find it hard to believe, as they sell a LOT of food and it isn't cheap (nor is it too expensive).

You're absolutely correct. I should have gone back and re-read §46.035(b)(1) before posting. It says, "...the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages..."

 

[Cold_B]

What About Hospitals?

I have a quick question about hospitals. My CHL is somewhere in the mail, so as of yet I haven't carried in a hospital, but as I often go into them to do consulting, it would be nice to be able to.

My understading of the matter after reading the penal code is that for a hospital to legally keep you from entering with your CH, they have to post a 30.06 sign. But then someone mentioned that churchs can issue cards that inform you, and obviously they dont go handing around 30.06 signs.

I am attaching a quick picture I took a of Dallas hospitals sign, does that sign prevent a CHL from carrying in the hospital.

It mentions Texas Penal Code 46.02 & 46.035.

46.035 says that a hospital has to give you effective notice under section 30.06.

It is not a 30.06 sign, but does it fall under 30.06 (e)?

 

[csmkersh]

Here is the the Texas penal code on hospitals and licensed CCW:

§ 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE
HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.
<snip>
(b)(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under
Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing
home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the
license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing
home administration, as appropriate;
<more snip>
(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply
if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

The quick and dirty is the sign doesn't meet Texas Penal Code requirements. You may be arrested, but you can beat the charge. What you may not beat is the hospital's denying you privileges to practice there.

What might work, depending on the chief administrator, is you might get written permission to carry. I wouldn't bet on that. I doubt they would bother to actually think and realize they do have the option under law to grant you that privilege.

 

[roo_ster]

csmkersh:

Thanks for posting the Aagaard article. He managed to articulate my very thoughts on the subject.

I think I've just been inspired the TSRA.

 

[csmkersh]

Glad you enjoyed the Aagard piece. The TSRA web site has a number of good articles and I think just about every one of Prof John Lott's papers and newspaper articles.

 

[Cold_B]

The quick and dirty is the sign doesn't meet Texas Penal Code requirements. You may be arrested, but you can beat the charge. What you may not beat is the hospital's denying you privileges to practice there. What might work, depending on the chief administrator, is you might get written permission to carry. I wouldn't bet on that. I doubt they would bother to actually think and realize they do have the option under law to grant you that privilege.

I am not trying to argue with you, just trying to make sure everyone, my self especially, understands this mess.

That said, I'm not directly employed by said hospital, and knowing how everything else works their especially, I dont think there is a chance. I called them, talked to a receptionist, who said I couldn't, and then called back and talked to security and they said I can't as well.

I think that 30.06 Section E is the key

It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a goverment entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibted from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035

I think that the last change to the Penal code (last year?) negates the automatic exclusion of hospitals from disallowed places to carry under subsection I of 46.035.

(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

It seems like one says I can't carry their unless their is a 30.06 posted, while the other says I can't carry their if it is forbidden (which means a 30.06 is posted.)

That all of course assumes that I get CAUGHT carrying, which if I am doing it right, should never happen, but I don't want to, and can't afford to go to court just to prove .... UGH!

 

[csmkersh]

I don't mind continuing and I see where there is more than a little room for confusion on all sides here, Cold_B.

Per your post:

I am not trying to argue with you, just trying to make sure everyone, my self especially, understands this mess.

That said, I'm not directly employed by said hospital, and knowing how everything else works their especially, I dont think there is a chance. I called them, talked to a receptionist, who said I couldn't, and then called back and talked to security and they said I can't as well.

I think that 30.06 Section E is the key


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a goverment entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibted from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I think that the last change to the Penal code (last year?) negates the automatic exclusion of hospitals from disallowed places to carry under subsection I of 46.035.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, the 30.06 E,

It seems like one says I can't carry their unless their is a 30.06 posted, while the other says I can't carry their if it is forbidden (which means a 30.06 is posted.)

That all of course assumes that I get CAUGHT carrying, which if I am doing it right, should never happen, but I don't want to, and can't afford to go to court just to prove .... UGH!

Senate Bill 501 added 30.06 Section 2(e) which you quoted, became effective 1 Sept 2003, does exclude property owned or leased by a govenment agency EXCEPT where that propety is already a prohibited place, ie a hospital WITH a valid 30.06 sign posted. So, in your case, it doesn't matter if the hospital is a private or publically owned facility; what matters is whether they have a proper 30.06 sign at all the entrances. The photo you attached does not show a proper 30.06 sign. So, despite the receptionist's and security's statements, you aren't in violation of the law if you do carry. Now if it is a private hospital, and they do discover you're heeled, they are within their rights to ask you to leave and if you refuse, you can be arrested for criminal trespass. I'm not sure how this plays out in a city/county owned hospital.