TX CHL Compliance ?

[CZSteve]

Maybe I'm just too dense to sometimes, But...

Have a question regarding carrying in a church or etc. here in TX.
Persuant to Title 37, Part 1, Chapter 6, Subch. D, Rule 6.45 (TX Concealed Handgun Laws, TX DPS)

A license holder may not carry a handgun on or about the license holder's person under authority of the Act in the following places:

(5) On the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship. No posting is required by the Act. Violation is a Class A misdemeanor under Texas Penal Code, §46.035. This subsection shall not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Texas Penal Code §30.06.

FYI: TX 30.06 posting requirement:

In order to provide notice that entry on property by a license holder with a concealed handgun is forbidden, Penal Code Section 30.06(c)(3)(A) requires that a written communication contain the following language:

"PURSUANT TO SECTION 30.06, PENAL CODE (TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF A LICENSE TO CARRY A CONCEALED HANDGUN) A PERSON LICENSED UNDER SUBCHAPTER H, CHAPTER 411, GOVERNMENT CODE (CONCEALED HANDGUN LAW), MAY NOT ENTER THIS PROPERTY WITH A CONCEALED HANDGUN."

OK, now I'm confused.
In one sentence it is stated that no posting is required - "No posting is required by the Act. Violation is a Class A misdemeanor under Texas Penal Code, §46.035."
In the next sentence it states that if a 'properly' posted sign is not displayed then this subsection does not apply - " This subsection shall not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Texas Penal Code §30.06."

Soooo, Is it 'Legal' to carry in a church in Texas or not?
Only interested in the legal 'black-n-white':banghead: definition, not moral of philosophical thoughts on Church carry.

Signed,
Confused in Texas

P.S. All info was found on the TX DPS web site:
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/chlsindex.htm

 

[TechBrute]

The 30.06 sign is for places that are not already specifically forbidden.

 

[CZSteve]

Hey TechBrute,

Yes, understand the intent/necessity of the 30.06 signage.

My question is more to the point of how in one sentence it is stated that no posting is required and in the next that if effective notice was not given under TX PC 30.06, this subsection (church carry) does not apply.

It's that last sentence in Rule 6.45 - (5) that seems to contradict the "No Posting is Requred" sentence in the same rule.

P.S. Looking forward to the get-together @ the Shooting Gallery today.

 

[TechBrute]

Oh, so now I'm expected to actually have my head out of my butt... sorry didn't read closely enough. Now I'm confused. I'm going to read the entire 30.06 and get back to you. See you this afternoon.

 

[TechBrute]

PC §30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY
CONCEALED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if
the license holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter
411, Government Code, on property of another without effective
consent; and
(2) received notice that:
(A) entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed
handgun was forbidden; or
(B) remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was
forbidden and failed to depart.
(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the
owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the
owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.
(c) In this section:
(1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section 30.05(b).
(2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by Section
46.035(f).
(3) "Written communication" means:
(A) a card or other document on which is written language
identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code
(trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person
licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed
handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed
handgun"; or
(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both
English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least
one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to
the public.
(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
(e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property
on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased
by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which
the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under
Section 46.03 or 46.035.

It's almost like it's some sort of mandate for churches to post a 30.06 sign. Didn't someone propose a change that would moot this?

 

[Texasbagman]

The last I understood was that both church and hospital had to post the 30.06 sign in order to properly notify the CHL holder. If no sign was present, then no charges could be brought against the CHL'er.

 

[M2 Carbine]

My CHL instructor said the church must post the 30.06 sign or give everyone entering a "30.06 card".


Like many laws, it states the law, then further down there are exceptions to the law.


Even when the CHL first started a friend said, the hell with state, it's his church, not the state's and if he (and others) wanted to carry there they were going to.


I think the church shooting in Fort Worth changed some minds.
http://www.usmayors.org/uscm/us_mayor_newspaper/documents/09_20_99/fort_washington.htm

 

[CleverNickname]

It is legal to carry inside a church. What happened is that originally the law banned carry in churches. When the legislature amended the law to allow church carry, instead of removing the part of the law that banned it, they added another part that says the first part doesn't have any legal effect any more.

 

[JohnKSa]

TX CHL Laws change frequently.

Please make sure you have the LATEST copy of the laws.

The law has changed with respect to whether or not churches must be posted to keep out CHL holder.

 

[mec]

The current CHL handbook is pretty good but for several years, they simply slapped in revisions without removing the original text. This way it was possible to read that it is unlawful to carry in a Church Hospital Amusement Park Governement Meeting or Nursing home. and then turn the page and find out that "No violation exists" in those specific places unless the carrier had received sufficient notice - a 30:06 sign, a card or verbal notification."

 

[csmkersh]

Yes, CZSteve, it can be a little confusing.

But §46.035(i) plainly states that if a proper 30.06 trespass sign isn't posted, then the prohibition against carrying a licnesed concealed handgun is void. This section also voids the prohibition for hosiptals, nursing homes, amusement parks or government meetings.

 

[MaterDei]

In Texas you can carry everywhere except:

1. Schools, public and private.
2. Polling place during polling.
3. Court houses and offices.
4. Racetrack (paramutual type)
5. Secured area of an airport
6. Within 1000 feet of an execution place on an execution day.
7. Anyplace where a proper 30.06 sign is displayed
8. Anyplace with a '51%' sign displayed.
9. Any federal building that the feds have deemed off limits (all of them to the best of my knowledge)
10. Where a sporting event is taking place (professional or scholastic).
11. In a correctional facility.
12. Anywhere when intoxicated
13. People working as security guards cannot use their CHL to carry. They have a different process that they must follow in order to carry while they are working.

 

[client32]

Under the web sites FAQ

Q: Where can I not take my handgun?
A: Handguns and other weapons can not be carried at schools or on
school buses, at polling places, in courts and court offices, at racetracks,
at secured airport areas or within 1,000 feet of the premises of
an execution on the day the execution. The law also specifically prohibits
handguns from businesses where alcohol is sold if more than
half of their revenue is from the sale of alcohol for on-premises consumption,
and from locations where high school, college or professional
sporting events are taking place. You may not carry handguns
in hospitals or nursing homes, amusement parks, places of worship or
at government meetings if signs are posted prohibiting them. Businesses
also may post signs prohibiting handguns on their premises
based on criminal trespass laws.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/ftp/forms/ls-16.pdf#page=64

 

[mec]

According to the attorney for the Concealed Handgun unit as of August 2003, no licene holders had been prosecuted for carrying a handgun at proscribed locations.

 

[csmkersh]

MaterDei wrote

In Texas you can carry everywhere except:
1. Schools, public and private.
2. Polling place during polling.
3. Court houses and offices.
4. Racetrack (paramutual type)
5. Secured area of an airport
6. Within 1000 feet of an execution place on an execution day.
7. Anyplace where a proper 30.06 sign is displayed
8. Anyplace with a '51%' sign displayed.
9. Any federal building that the feds have deemed off limits (all of them to the best of my knowledge)
10. Where a sporting event is taking place (professional or scholastic).
11. In a correctional facility.
12. Anywhere when intoxicated
13. People working as security guards cannot use their CHL to carry. They have a different process that they must follow in order to carry while they are working.

Not completely correct. Let's start with No. 4

"Racetrack (paramutual type). The law merely says "racetrack." It doesn't differentiate between paramutual tracks and stockcar tracks. According to DA Investigator and certified CHL instructor Sammy Miller, all racetracks are off-limits.

No.7 Any place a proper 30.06 sign is displayed. Not if it's displayed on city, county or state property other than court houses. The law was changed effectively Sept 1 2003 removing the right of any govenmental agency to post under 30.06. Court houses or buildings with a court room in them are completely off-limits. Not sure how this works in a strip-mall with a JP Court - badly, I suppose.

No. 8 Anyplace with a 51% sign displayed. Wrong. The 51% sign applies only to those places where the business makes 51% or more of their profit from on-premesis consumption of alcohol. At one time, hospitals were required to post 51% signs but that never made sense. If you see a resturant or package store with a 51% percent sign, report it to TABC. It will be pulled normally within two business days.

No. 9. Any federal building the feds have deemed off limits... Again wrong. This is counter to federal law as found in USC Title 18, Section 930. Yes, I know the post office and many febs try to pretend that CFR 32 whatever is a blanket ban, but it isn't. I suggest that anyone interested read the article on The Gun Zone by Rob Firriolo, an attorney for further enlightenment

 

[Dallas239]

csmkersh wrote:

Not completely correct. Let's start with No. 4

"Racetrack (paramutual type). The law merely says "racetrack." It doesn't differentiate between paramutual tracks and stockcar tracks. According to DA Investigator and certified CHL instructor Sammy Miller, all racetracks are off-limits.

You can tell DA Investigator and certified CHL instructor Sammy Miller that he's wrong. The law most definately differentiates between pari-mutuel tracks and other types.

PC §46.01. DEFINITIONS.
(15) "Racetrack" has the meaning assigned that term by the
Texas Racing Act (Article 179e, Vernon's Texas Civil Statutes).

THE TEXAS RACING ACT
Article 1. General Provisions
Sec. 1.03. Definitions.
In this Act:
(25) "Racetrack" means a facility that is licensed under this Act for the conduct of pari-mutuel wagering on greyhound racing or horse racing.

 

[csmkersh]

Will do, Dallas. I'll see him for renewal in June this year.

 

[MaterDei]

csmkersh

Sergeant Major, (I'm assuming that csm stands for command sergeant major?)

You may be correct but let me just say that my information came straight out of the book, I'm no lawyer.

You can tell DA Investigator and certified CHL instructor Sammy Miller that he's wrong. The law most definately differentiates between pari-mutuel tracks and other types.

Besides, I believe a stock car race would be covered under professional sporting event anyway. I know that the Houston Rodeo is off limits due to the fact that it is considered a professional sport.

Regarding your points on numbers 7, 8, and 9, I hope you're right. The fewer restrictions the better. However, I'm not aware of any case law supporting your position. I'll let you be the test case.
You can choose to follow 'The Gun Zone' code, I feel safer following the Texas Penal Code.

MaterDei

 

[tiberius]

csmkersh's interpretaion is absolutely correct. You have to read the penal code and administrative code to get the whole picture though.

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/petoc.html
http://info.sos.state.tx.us/pls/pub/readtac$ext.ViewTAC?tac_view=4&ti=37&pt=1&ch=6

I too believe that

(2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate,
or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking
place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a
handgun is used in the event;

would include the afformentioned NASCAR event.

 

[tiberius]

Well, since we are all pretty familiar with the penal code, but the administrative code is never even mentioned in the CHL literature, I thought that I would post the MOST relevant sections. The entire section can be found at the link I posted above though.

Places prohibited, felony Violation:

A license holder may not carry a handgun on or about the license holder's person under authority of the Act in the following places:
(1) On the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Alcoholic Beverage Code, Chapters 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, if the business derives 51% or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption. Posting is required by the Act, but an establishment's failure to post is not a statutory defense to the license holder. Violation is a third degree felony under Texas Penal Code, §46.035.
(2) On the premises of a correctional facility. No posting is required by the Act. Violation is a third degree felony under Texas Penal Code, §46.035.
(3) On the physical premises of a school, an educational institution, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or an educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution. No posting is required by the Act. Violation is a third degree felony under Texas Penal Code, §46.03.
(4) On the premises of a polling place on the day of an election or while early voting is in progress. No posting is required by the Act. Violation is a third degree felony under Texas Penal Code, §46.03.
(5) In any government court or offices utilized by the court, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the court. No posting is required by the Act. Violation is a third degree felony under Texas Penal Code, §46.03.
(6) On the premises of a racetrack. No posting is required by the Act. Violation is a third degree felony under Texas Penal Code, §46.03.
(7) Into a secured area of an airport. No posting is required by the Act. Violation is a third degree felony under Texas Penal Code, §46.03.
(8) Within 1,000 feet of premises the location of which is designated by the Texas Department of Criminal Justice as a place of execution under Article 43.19, Code of Criminal Procedure, on a day that a sentence of death is set to be imposed on the designated premises and the person received notice that:
(A) going within 1,000 feet of the premises with a weapon listed under this subsection was prohibited; or
(B) possession a weapon listed under this subsection within 1,000 feet of the premises was prohibited.

Places Prohibited: Class A Misdemeanor Violations

A license holder may not carry a handgun on or about the license holder's person under authority of the Act in the following places:
(1) On the premises of a hospital licensed under the Health and Safety Code, Chapter 241, unless the license holder has written authorization of the hospital administration. Posting is required by the Act. Violation is a Class A misdemeanor under Texas Penal Code, §46.035. This subsection shall not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Texas Penal Code §30.06.
(2) On the premises of a nursing home licensed under the Health and Safety Code, Chapter 242, unless the license holder has written authorization of the nursing home administration. Posting is required by the Act. Violation is a Class A misdemeanor under Texas Penal Code, §46.035. This subsection shall not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Texas Penal Code §30.06.
(3) On the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event is taking place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a handgun is used in the event. No posting is required by the Act. Violation is a Class A misdemeanor under Texas Penal Code, §46.035.
(4) In an amusement park. "Amusement park" means a permanent indoor or outdoor facility or park where amusement rides are available for use by the public that is located in a county with a population of more than one million, encompasses at least 75 acres in surface area, is enclosed with access only through controlled entries, is open for operation more than 120 days in each calendar year, and has security guards on the premises at all times. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area. No posting is required by the Act. Violation is a Class A misdemeanor under Texas Penal Code, §46.035. This subsection shall not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Texas Penal Code §30.06.
(5) On the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship. No posting is required by the Act. Violation is a Class A misdemeanor under Texas Penal Code, §46.035. This subsection shall not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Texas Penal Code §30.06.
(6) At any meeting of a governmental entity. No posting is required by the Act. Violation is a Class A misdemeanor under Texas Penal Code, §46.035. This subsection shall not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Texas Penal Code §30.06.

Places Prohibited: Class C Misdemeanor Violation

A license holder may not carry a handgun on or about the license holder's person under authority of the Act on or across land of the Lower Colorado River Authority. No posting is required by the Act. Violation is a Class C misdemeanor under Parks and Wildlife Code, §62.081

 

[tiberius]

(8) Within 1,000 feet of premises the location of which is designated by the Texas Department of Criminal Justice as a place of execution under Article 43.19, Code of Criminal Procedure, on a day that a sentence of death is set to be imposed on the designated premises and the person received notice that:

Somcehow I think this is "uniquely" Texan

 

[csmkersh]

MaterDei, you are correct on the CSM part and I was wrong on the No. 4 part. Dallas239 went to the trouble of looking up the definition of "racetrack" in the Texas Racing Act and it strickly parimutual betting tracks.

This past session of the State legislature changed 30.06 by SB501

SECTION 2. Section 30.06, Penal Code, is amended by adding
Subsection (e) to read as follows:
(e) It is an exception to the application of this section
that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is
owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or
other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying
the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.

Full text is here
http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlo/78R/billtext/SB00501F.HTM

We've found a number of places that improperly post 51% signs. Some have been resturants or grocery stores. It's usually a case of someone receiving the sign from TABC and not bothering to read the imfo and just posting it. TABC has been very coopertive on getting them pulled.

As to posting federal buildings, USC Title 18 Secton 930 says two things of importance to CHL holders. First, it's legal to carry if you are engaged in "...hunting or other lawful purpose..." sec930((d)(3) and further down it requires the complete section be posted for any to be binding (Sec 930(h).

The USC can be found here
http://tinyurl.com/2d8at

 

[Smoke]

How about a summary for those of us that don't speak "Lawyer"?

What is the consensus of the group?

Smoke

 

[csmkersh]

Smoke, the summary is this:

1. Cities and counties in Texas no longer may ban concealed handguns if you have a CHL.

2. It isn't against the federal law to CCW in a post office or other federal building except court buildings.

3. You can beat the charge but you won't beat the ride.

 

[csmkersh]

Tiberius wrote

A license holder may not carry a handgun on or about the license holder's person under authority of the Act on or across land of the Lower Colorado River Authority. No posting is required by the Act. Violation is a Class C misdemeanor under Parks and Wildlife Code, §62.081

This is still the way things are. The Texas House passed a bill that would have ended this prohibition last session, but with the redistricting boondoggle, the bill died in committee when it reached the Senate. We'll need to push this and several other changes in 2005.