The .22LR in Actual Use

[Technosavant]

a .22 might also might be enough pshycological trama to neutralize the situation. I think it might be a little easier to explain to the LEO a BG with a .22 cal hole in him, still alive but compliant

And if the person has an altered mental state due to drugs (or anything else), they might not even notice they've been shot.

Sure, handgun rounds have poor abilities compared to rifles. But that doesn't mean they're all alike. Some are less poor than others. Deliberately choosing the smallest of them all and claiming it's every bit as good as larger, more capable ones is just not a wise thing to do. Sure, if that's all you can grab, go for it. It might be all you can conceal. But don't pretend that you're as well armed as the guy with a Glock or a 1911.

 

[Steve499]

I shot and temporarily paralysed a large deer with a 30-06 through the neck above the spine. When I made it to where he was down and saw he was regaining some body use, I didn't want to 30-06 him again at point blank range, so I shot him with a Beretta model 21 .22 LR loaded with CCI stingers that I always carried in my pocket. The shot was made with the pistol's muzzle about 3 inches from the deer's skull. He went limp and I bled him out. When I was removing the hide from the skull, I found the bullet perfectly mushroomed and resting in a depression it had made in the skull without any penetration at all.

I have used a .22 to dispatch cattle and hogs at butchering time since the 60s, and they work fine for that if fired from a rifle and the shots taken carefully. This was the first time I ever had one fail to penetrate a skull, but then again, I never before tried to do it with a 2 inch barrelled pistol.

I no longer carry that Beretta .22. My pocket gun now is a .380. A .22, fired from a rifle is a totally different breed of cat than one fired from one of the short barrelled pistols. Most of us recognize that but some people who aren't as much into the whole shooting thing expect the same performance from the .22 round regardless of what they shoot it in, and they won't get it.

I'd use the Beretta still if it was all I had, but since it isn't, I choose to go with something bigger.

Steve

 

[Crimper-D]

My shooting career started with

My College Pistol Team = Shooting International Rapidfire mail matches, our targets were silhouettes, scaled down full length. COM bullseye. The fastest course of fire was 5 aimed rounds in 3 seconds The team scored 3rd in the country 2 years in a row.... behind West Point & Annapolis - we outshot the Airforce Acadamy both times for the #3 slot Since then, I have had NO problem using a .22 as a self defense weapon
The potential for up to 9 COM hits as the situation requires, is very soothing, or 4 rounds for the point Goblin and a couple left over as 'discouragements' to the rest of the pack if you get jumped by a crowd
Aimed Rapidfire/Multiple impacts.
Grab a rifle if you get a chance

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The shot was made with the pistol's muzzle about 3 inches from the deer's skull. He went limp and I bled him out. When I was removing the hide from the skull, I found the bullet perfectly mushroomed and resting in a depression it had made in the skull without any penetration at all.

Ross Seifreid had almost the same experience, trying to dispatch a wounded elk with a snubby .38 Special. This might have something to do with the fact that deer and elk fight with their antlers, which are anchored to their skulls.

 

[igpoobah]

Well put Steve499!

 

[20nickels]

Real life .22lr vs. human data;
Samuel Byck used a ruger single six .22lr to hijack an airliner in an attempt to assassinate Nixon. The pilot was shot several times, and a security guard was murdered and his .357 left next to the body. Sam obviuosly did not feel undergunned.....but he was crazy too.
It's probably too soon to discuss this, but the A-hole that shot up V-Tech had a Walther P22 in addition to the Glock. I don't know how much he used it though.

 

[tinygnat219]

Cho mostly used the Glock 19.

 

[Essex County]

Please Trust Me........

I have no experience shooting Folks.....but I have shot enough small mamals to know it's not tool for the job........Essex

 

[[TASF]Maverick]

The first groundhog I ever killed was with a .22 rifle. Hit him in the throat. He was gasping for air when I walked up to him, so I shot him in the head. Still gasping. Shot him again. And again. I shot the groundhog 11 times from point blank, all in the head. He was still moving.

The only actual use for a .22 is suppressed fire to take out light bulbs for some kind of tactical joint strike.

And training.

 

[peacemaker45]

It seems to me that the thing to remember here is how a bullet actually does its killing. Unless the central nervous system is damaged or destroyed, blood loss is all you're working with. In that light, it seems to me that the more big holes you can make for the goblin to bleed from, the better.

The goal in self defense scenarios is to stop the attack as quickly as possible. A .22LR might kill the attacker, but the chances are very good that it won't do so fast enough to prevent him killing you before he expires himself.

A good parallel is deer hunting. A deer reacts differently to being shot than a normal human, due to the massive adrenaline dump than a prey animal is capable of, evolved to be able to help even a badly wounded animal escape from a predator. However, that response is not entirely unlike the response of a human whose body is supercharged on drugs. I've seen deer with phenomenal hits, such as both shoulders, heart and lungs destroyed, by a 45-70 bullet, weighing more than twice as much as the average .45 ACP, and travelling twice as fast, STILL run several hundred yards. The deer was already dead, just hadn't realized it, yet. How bad would it go for you, if a human attacker who was in similar straits got to you, before he later realized than he'd been fatally wounded?

Basically, what I'm driving at here, is that when it comes to self defense, my first choice is a minigun. However, since they weigh about 130 lbs, plus ammo and power source, I've had to look for something slightly more portable. I think that might be a better system than starting with an NAA .22 Short, and then working up until someone on the internet says, "Yeah, that might do it."

~~~Mat

 

[Rex B]

Seems to me like Mossad used .22s to good effect post-Munich.
Right now my daily carry alternates between a NAA Black Widow .22WMR and a Keltec .380. When it's cooler I add a 9mm Keltec to the rotation.

[Quoote]I think it might be a little easier to explain to the LEO a BG with a .22 cal hole in him, still alive but compliant, then a dead BG with his insides all over your living room wall from a 45. [/Quote]

Yes, but in the latter case only your version of "the truth" gets told.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

A couple months back in one of those gun magazines (Combat Handguns I think) there was an article about an off duty LEO who was mugged while walking with his GF in a park. He pulled out his NAA .22 and shot the bad guy in the head. The bad guy reached up, saw the blood on his hand from his forehead, and dropped. Turns out the bullet hit his skull and skidded just under the scalp, going out somewhere on the other side, no penetration. After thinking he'd just been plugged between the eyes the BG fainted.

Somebody who is on drugs or more determined could have attacked back (I think the mugger had his own gun too) and put you and yours in a world of hurt.
You could probably down a cape buffalo with a perfectly placed shot from a .22 but it isn't the best tool for the job, especially when your life is on the line.

 

[W.E.G.]

A weak hit is better than a strong miss.

But a strong hit is better than a weak hit.

Your target won't be standing still.

 

[AJD]

There are better choices, but a .22 LR can kill someone. I think the vast majority of people underestimate just how fragile the human body is.

 

[igpoobah]

I've seen deer with phenomenal hits, such as both shoulders, heart and lungs destroyed, by a 45-70 bullet, weighing more than twice as much as the average .45 ACP, and travelling twice as fast, STILL run several hundred yards. The deer was already dead, just hadn't realized it, yet.

To counter that statement, I've seen a deer drop dead on the spot from a single .22 shot.

That both examples are from opposite ends of the far extreme is noted.

 

[CWL]

Unless you are on-duty Military or LEO, nobody forces you to use a certain round.
Use whatever caliber you want -I don't care because I'll never plan on robbing anyone or break into your home.

What everyone must remember when choosing pistol caliber for SD is that EVERY pistol caliber is underpowered for SD. There is zero guarantee that any pistol round will hit, penetrate or stop anyone.

 

[Jim Watson]

The .22 (also .25 and sometimes .32) is sometimes referred to as a "face gun" meaning you should aim for the face and hope to slip a bullet through an eye or sinus into the brain. That means you are shooting to kill, not to stop. I would think this troublesome to the same sort of bedroll lawyer who warns against self defense with custom guns or handloaded ammunition.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

If someone said, "Black Bart and his gang are on the way here, and they've sworn to kill all of us!" how many of us would choose a .22 as our primary weapon?

 

[rantingredneck]

If someone said, "Black Bart and his gang are on the way here, and they've sworn to kill all of us!" how many of us would choose a .22 as our primary weapon?

If someone said that I'd be on my hobby horse riding it the hell out of Dodge. Or in my Dodge riding it the hell out of _____, but you get my point.

That being said, I agree that it would not be the weapon I would intentionally carry into a violent encounter.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

If someone said, "Black Bart and his gang are on the way here, and they've sworn to kill all of us!" how many of us would choose a .22 as our primary weapon?

Well that's not the best example because Ralphy defeated Black Bart and his gang with a BB gun

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The .22 (also .25 and sometimes .32) is sometimes referred to as a "face gun" meaning you should aim for the face and hope to slip a bullet through an eye or sinus into the brain. That means you are shooting to kill, not to stop. I would think this troublesome to the same sort of bedroll lawyer who warns against self defense with custom guns or handloaded ammunition.

During WWII the British decided to mount a Thousand Plane Raid on Germany -- attacking Cologne. To get a thousand planes, they had to put up everything that would fly -- including some squadrons that were still in training.

There is a famous cathedral in Cologne, and strict orders were given not to damage the cathedral.

In order to avoid hitting the cathedral, some squadron commanders ordered their pilots to hit it -- on the theory that wherever the bombs landed, they wouldn't land where they were aimed.

If some lawyer claimed the defendant deliberately shot the deceased in the eye with a .22 pistol, and I were the defense counsel, I'd bring the jury out to the range and see if any of them could hit a moving object the size of a man's eye -- or even the lethal area of the head reliably.

 

[Geronimo45]

Goody! A caliber war! Everybody gets to trot out "A .22 will only make him mad" and the other side gets to mention how a .22 that you can carry's better than a .45 that you won't. Also, how a .22 never manages to kill anybody except in extremely weird situations - and then how .45 has a lousy track record of killing people, too.
Somewhere down the line, somebody'll get into the 9mm vs .45 debate - faster follow-up shots vs bigger shots. How much is your life worth? A .22 couldn't take out a canary. A .22 will bounce around your insides like a rubber ball, until your intestines become swiss cheese.
Also of obligatory mention: A .22 will always bounce off the skull. Won't do a thing unless'n you get 'em in the eye socket. Only way to stop somebody with a smaller-caliber weapon is a headshot. Torso shots bounce off. Leather jackets repel bullets better than kevlar.
Someone will say that .22 vs .45 debates are stupid- that the most pressing danger to America today is m'f'ing snakes on m'f'ing planes. Somebody will mention zombies to prove a point, and a discussion of anti-zombie snakeshot will begin. Someone will say that snakeshot is utter garbage. Someone will mention that they can carry any caliber they like, as they have multiple trauma plates duct-taped on their backs.

Summary of the future complete. We now return to our regularly scheduled episode of: "What caliber for bear?"

 

[toivo]

Nicely summarized, Geronimo45. Now I can stop reading this thread and get on with my life. Thanks!

 

[High Planes Drifter]

Summary of the future complete. We now return to our regularly scheduled episode of: "What caliber for bear?"

Well, thats a tough one...... hmmmm. Im sure the bear can conceal an NAA .22, but can he get his fat finger in that trigger well? Also, with the course hair that a bear has, I would be concerned about the finish holding up.

 

[TimboKhan]

The .22 will kill a person, but that death will likely not occur immediately. In fact, it may take several hours. In that regard, a .22 is unsuitable for SD. However, several things need to be clarified here.
1. No bullet guarantees a one-shot stop. Even .50 BMG rounds have hit people and not caused an immediate stop. Obviously, your chances are signifigantly higher with a .50 BMG, but it is not a 100% guarantee.
2. Your level of training needs to be absolutely superb in order to assume that you will have the presence of mind and skill to put a .22 up someones tear duct. If you think you can do it, well, godspeed. I know that I can't
3. A .22 is better than a sharp stick, and I would even take one over a knife in a fight. Still, in most SD situations, there is no particular reason that I would ever have to do so, with one exception. That exception is that I often tote nothing more than a .22 when fishing. There is a very minute chance that I would have to use it for SD in that environment, but it's not impossible. It's a calculated risk, but a .22 is usually much more useful in the field than a .45 is. If I am going deep in the woods for a multi-day trip, I take a bigger gun, but for day trips along the Poudre River, the .22 is all I take.
4. Shooting someone with a .22 may cause enough pain to stop the threat, or it may induce enough fear to cause someone to flee. If someone shot me with a .22, I would leave immediately. That being said, your not going to be dealing with me. Again, better than a sharp stick, but it's really not sufficient.