The 642 club

[TEL]

Ammo Poll

Nem

I'm also thinking that the results of the poll might be more of a popularity contest than the result of studious research into the subject. When I first joined the "Club" about a month ago, a read through all the posts made it clear to me that the 135 gr. Speer Gold Dot +P's were the ammo of choice. But is this the result of a "snowball" effect, e.g., I see where a lot of club members use this ammo so I'm going to use it and also recommend it to the next new "Club" member (even though I have no real scientific basis for my recommendation).

Maybe the best outcome from the poll is to identify, say, the top 3 ammo choices and then follow up with a joint research effort to determine which of the top 3 choices really is the best defensive round. We club members could collaborate in a search for documentation on the characteristics, etc. of the top 3 defensive rounds, posting links to the research we've found and briefly summarizing the bottom line of the research in a post. Up front we may want to try and define the characteristics of a "perfect" defensive round (penetration depth, amount of fragmentation, muzzle velocity, etc.).

Just a thought.

 

[loplop]

It is very difficult to determine what makes the "best" defensive round. You can only choose based upon available data, which is slim to none for some rounds. Gelatin tests are the most repeatable tests with potential correlation to performance, so that is one avenue to pursue. JE223 on the board will do tests for you, and I am in fact sponsoring a test on the GDHP 124gr +P 9mm round to see how it does. So perhaps club members can chip in and get some of the top defensive rounds tested (that he hasn't already tested).

 

[DawgFvr]

TEL: You hit it right on the head! Welcome on board. That was a very well thought out post...and yes it is a very subjective topic. There are posts somewhere within this thread wherein Gold Dots, DPX and the FBI loads were compared head to head. It produced little comment...I believe that people tend to see "what they want to see" and believe "what they want to believe." After all is said and done, they purchase whatever is cost effective and close at hand.

 

[loplop]

After all is said and done, they purchase whatever is cost effective and close at hand.

And, hopefully, what they are proficient with.

 

[AStone]

Tel, I think you're ideas a very good ones. (I think you're going to fit in very well here. )

We might modify the number of categories (5 maybe instead of just three...I dunno, just thinking out loud for now).

And we should definitely take Lop's caveats to heart: "It is very difficult to determine what makes the 'best' defensive round". Point well taken. In fact, I'd go a step further and say there probably is no single rnd that is "the best". What I'm trying to do is identify several that will offer me "best" rnds for different occasions (e.g., one for summer and light clothing, one for winter and heavy clothing, etc).

But it seems using the first poll to narrow the choices down could be reasonable. However - and this is a big however - if we use the "top" three choices in a "popularity contest", we may be eliminating a potentially "best" rnd that got eliminated just because we students don't have enough knowledge about its potential to vote for it.

Again, read nothing authoritative in my words, because there's none there. I'm a novice. Just thinking out loud.

Nem

 

[1BLINDREF]

Ankle Holster

Hello club members -
I've been busy playing with Sigs lately so I haven't been very active on this thread - more reading then posting.
I'm thinking about getting a good ankle rig for my 642. I want one that will be comfortable to wear for 10 to 12 hours.
Any help will be greatly appreciated!! - Thanks

 

[revolvergeek]

I think that the new Buffalo Bore Heavy Standard Velocity loads are worth looking at. The 150gr hard cast full wadcutter is particularly interesting.

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#tactical357

From the website:

Item 20D utilizes a very hard cast 150gr. WAD CUTTER bullet. The bullet is made hard, so it won't deform or mushroom. It cuts/crushes a "cookie cutter", full diameter hole in human flesh just like it does on a paper target. It penetrates deeply (roughly 14 to 16 inches in human tissue) and its full diameter profile maximizes blood loss as it cuts and crushes (not slips or slides) its way through tissue. <SNIP> These bullets are hard and properly lubed and will NOT lead your barrel. Note my velocities from real world "over the counter" revolvers—NOT TEST BARRELS!

a. S&W mod. 60, 2 inch barrel—868 fps (251 ft. lbs.)
b. S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch barrel—890 fps (264 ft. lbs.)
c. Ruger SP101, 3 inch barrel—961 fps (308 ft. lbs.)
d. S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch barrel—1005 fps (336 ft. lbs.) "

I may adopt this for use as apartment defense ammo when staying over at my g/f's place.

 

[crankshop1000]

Count me in...

Bought a new 642-2 with the intention of CCW. just completed the required courses (required in MI even though I'm a former LEO) I put 40 shots in a 12" circle at various distances up to 15 yds. Not bad for full power loads with a new DA only snubbie. Very happy!! I'm ordering a Mika pocket holster to use in addition to my iwb Uncle Mike cheapie. Chuck.

 

[Tom Servo]

Damn teh intarwebs!

I needed something more discreet for work carry, and I had my heart set on a Sig P232. SET, I tell you.

I'd been hearing about the 642 for awhile, but I'm not a fan of tiny wheelguns. Then my friends pestered me, but the silver finish didn't agree with me. Then I read this thread, and I found out there was a blued one, then....then...



After a couple hundred dry-fires, the trigger has smoothed out noticeably. It's heavy but somewhat smooth, with very little stacking towards the rear. It reminds me of the DA triggers on CZ's, which is a compliment. Much better than I'd expect in a gun this size and price.

I've only fired target ammo so far, and although it's not brutal, it lets you know it's there. Anybody here tried the Black Hills 125gr for it?

 

[fiVe]

crankshop1000 - welcome to the club.

Erik F - welcome to you, too, and nice pic.

 

[MassMark]

Welcome Indy!

Welcome all new members of the 642 Club - you will love your decision and love being a member of this club. Everyone here is top-shelf.

Crankshop1000 - you will be amazed at what this holster will do for you and carrying your 642! It really is a case of function over form. Worth every cent. ordering another one tomorrow.

 

[jt1]

crankshop1000 - Welcome to the club. Good shooting, sounds like you 642 is doing it's job well. You'll like your new holster.

Erik F - Happy to have you with us. I agree with you about the trigger, I really like the small amount of "stacking" at the rear of the trigger travel. If you use the tip of your trigger finger to feel the back of the trigger guard you can consistently hold just short of the break and it's just like a single action. It might just come in handy sometime.

All - I am thinking about how to use our ammo poll data and how to arrive at our goal of finding the best rounds available for carry. I agree we currently have a popularity contest but it's a good starting point. TEL makes a good point, I'm still kicking my ideas around and will get them out soon. Anyone else?

 

[ARTiger]

JT1 (and all)> Just for info purposes,here are 8 +P hollowpoint loadings that I have been playing around with in "informal" testing.

Accuracy wise, from a well anchored sandbag rest on a table at 10 yards, all group <2 inches, so that's a relatively inane benchmark. [And a testament to how I haven't yet learned to shoot my 642 as well as it's capable of.] Shooting into a water barrel, the 135 grain GDHP expanded the most (noticeably better) and the Magtech SJHP the least.

I am going to duplicate that test again, but measure with a (newly acquired) micrometer and will give exact expansion details soon. Also on order are the 2 new Buff Bore loads and Doubletap's lone .38 +P offering as well. Once those come in, I will be shooting all 11 into the same wetpack in similar testing to what Mr. Camp does. (Making a "jumbo" wetpack by using unfolded newspaper in order to have a large enough area to fit all loads). Will also let you all know how that turns out. Will do some night shooting and give impressions of muzzle flash also.

Anyhow, here's a pic and a table with the manufacturer's claims for velocity and muzzle energy.

Manufacturer/Bullet/Muzzle Velocity FPS/Muzzle Energy FT/LBS

Corbon / 125 gr JHP / 950 / 251 (ME on box label is incorrect)
Federal / 129 gr HSJHP / 950 / 258
Winchester USA / 125 gr JHP / 945 / 248
Rem. UMC / 125 gr JHP / 945 / 248
Rem "FBI" / 158 gr. LSWCHP / 890 / 278
Speer / 125 gr GDHP / 945 / 248
Speer / 135 gr GDHP-SB / 860 / 222
Magtech / 158 gr SJHP / 890 / 278

Some side notes: The 135 gr. Speer GDHP had the least felt recoil to me, both Remington loads had the most. The Remington UMC load had recoil and noise way out of proportion to it's stated velocity and bullet weight.

 

[fiVe]

ARTiger: You get an A 100+ for your efforts here. You have earned the title of "official ammo tester" for The 642 Club. Thank you for taking on this task. We await your results with much expectation.

I also need to express my appreciation to jt1 and TEL for their "beyond-the-popularity-contest" research suggestions.

Shucks! This place abounds with meaty and profitable discussion. Carry on!

Peace,
fiVe

 

[jt1]

ARTiger - This is just what I want to see. Are you reading my mind? I know we can review test data from numerous sources but to have it done by one of our own with a 642 just like ours is about the best we could get IMO. I would really like to see the 110 gr. Cor-Bon DPX +P load added to your collection and I am more than willing to contribute to the cost of all your expenses related to these tests. Let's see what the general consensus is (but looks like you have it covered pretty well) and go from there.

By the way, <2 inches at 10 yards, with open sights? Looks like I have a fair amount of practice to do!

I am wondering if terminal ballistics from the 642 will vary greatly at ranges from point blank out to 21 feet or so? I feel that this is the most realistic range that will come into play in a SD situation, more than likely on the short side most of the time.

So, What do the rest of you 642'ers think?

 

[AStone]

What do the rest of you 642'ers think?

I try not to think much. Hurts my head.

Seriously, yes, I see the lil' mule as a close up gun. I can't imagine using it beyond about 10 yds. I could be wrong, of course. Other more experienced users can comment on that better than me.

Tiger, it's an interesting experiment you've got going on. I'm curious too.

You have earned the title of "official ammo tester" for The 642 Club.

Also known as the OAT.

Once you get it done, fiVe will knight you as Sir Oat.

Great bunch o' folks here. Feels like community.

I hope we get to have a 642 gathering someday to actually meet somewhere.

Nem

 

[ARTiger]

It's going to be at least a couple of weeks before I can get back to my cabin to do this. (wall to wall travel through end of next week then taking Mrs. Tiger and the cubs to Disney for a week - I'll be wanting to shoot something by then I'm sure. ).

Thanks for the $ offer jt1 - I've got it covered though. May have to order the Corbon 110's as I doubt any are available locally.

Also don't think there would be much, if any, drop off in velocity as close as 21 feet - I'll be shooting from about 3 feet though. With so many rounds, there will be a space limitation on even the "jumbo" wetpack so one shot per load may be all I get. Going to have to use a kiddie pool to soak that much newspaper anyhow.

By the way, <2 inches at 10 yards, with open sights? Looks like I have a fair amount of practice to do!

Amazing how my shooting improves with a table, sandbag and heavy vise. About 5 inch groups is the best I get shooting normally.

Doing this just because I'm a stubborn "need to see it for myself" type. Also am downsizing the caliber of my carry gun significantly by going to the .38 (from a Glock 29 10mm). Pocket carry is SOOO nice though - feels like I've lost weight.

 

[jt1]

With so many rounds, there will be a space limitation on even the "jumbo" wetpack so one shot per load may be all I get.

ARTiger - I understand the limitations but you could have some type of anomaly with any given round and without some type of "control" you will not have any basis for comparison. A minimum of two rounds per load will provide some measure of quality control.

We really appreciate you efforts. Have a nice vacation and don't be shooting any of Disney's "mice".

 

[ARTiger]

could have some type of anomaly with any given round and without some type of "control" you will not have any basis for comparison. A minimum of two rounds per load will provide some measure of quality control.

Yes, I agree. Two rounds it is.

 

[loplop]

ARTiger: do you have a chrono? That would be an excellent addition to your most excellent tests!

 

[TEL]

Ammo Study

First let me say that, although I've only been a member of the Club a short time, I'm impressed with the knowledge and camaraderie of this group.

Since we're exploring where we might go next after getting the results of Nem's poll, let me add another possible approach.

If we've got any engineers among our group (or maybe one of us knows an engineer who would help), it might be useful to apply some ballistics theory to each shell under consideration using data published by the manufacturer. For instance, I could envision one possible chart that might show an effectiveness index for each shell plotted against distance (a heavier bullet would slow down and drop faster than a light bullet, given the same amount of initial propulsion. Also, a bullet with more frontal cross section would be expected to slow down and drop faster than one with less frontal cross section).

If we could come up with a theoretical prediction of the effectiveness of each round based on ballistic theory, we could compare with actual test data that already exists for certain rounds to see if they fit the theory. If so, we've got a good method of making a quick assessment of any ammo.

I had some engineering while I was in college a lonnnnng time ago, so I'm pretty sure this would be possible and really not that difficult. However, I haven't had enough to do the work myself.

Any thoughts?

 

[loplop]

I think an index is potentially dangerous. The only true "index" would be to fire rounds into people. Doubt we'd get volunteers for that.

Other than that, we're left with something like "stopping power" or some other index based on conjecture. I don't like the idea behind that, I think the process of choosing a load is very complex, and includes factors we just don't know how to measure.

 

[DawgFvr]

ARTiger: IMHO, you have the wrong Corbon load in your mix. You definitely need the DPX + P 110 gr. all-copper bullets in your experiment to give the Gold Dot and FBI loads a run for their money.

 

[acerman]

I'll second that for the Corbon .38 spec. 110Gr. DPX

 

[crankshop1000]

opened the side and lubed...

I removed the side plate and lubed the moving parts. Well that helped!!! Bone dry inside. The DAO feels a lot smoother, which should help the pattern.Luckily, I still had a Chapman screwdriver kit laying around and didn't leave a mark.Chuck.