The amazing .45 auto

[Correia]

9mm vs. .45 threads remind me of the old Friday the 13th movies. Jason just keeps coming back. Hit him with a car, set him of fire, electrocute him, nail gun to the head, drown, pistol whip, whatever. It don't matter, he just keeps coming.

I will say one thing though. I think that the initial story is utter BS.

 

[ACP]

Snore. Where's the story about the 12-gauge slug that wouldn't stop the drug fiend, but the train conductor was killed by a .22 LR fired from a mile away? Don't take the one-in-a-milion example as the norm. Folks get stupid and dead very fast that way.

 

[English John]

You guys amaze me...

Sounds like the hoopla over Elmer's long distance .44 mag shot a looonng time ago- if YOU don't believe it it didn't happen (well, it did happen). As far as Fackler and Marshall and Sanow- they're all wrong- and all right. Carry what YOU have confidence in, after all it's YOUR life to protect. The most important thing is still.... bullet placement (think about it). Stuff happens, the eyes are the windows to the mind, but they kill you with their hands. Be careful out there.

 

[Missouri Mule]

BULL PUCKEY! :banghead:

 

[armabill]

What about the .22 mag?

 

[cordex]

Some M&S rehash:
If the story is true, it is still as meaningless as stories about people who have survived falling from aircraft without parachutes. It might happen, but it is go guarantee.

I've looked over the M&S material and it strikes me as silly. Statistical analysis as a predictive indicator of "stoppage" based on the caliber of the weapon alone is simply impossible.
Like analyzing the probability of a fatal car wreck based on tire size.
A .357 is more likely to "stop" than a .38 Special? Even if the weapons in question are a .357 snubbie with a 1.5 inch barrel and a .38spcl with a 5 inch barrel?

Silly.

And makes me doubt their other material.

 

[macd]

This argument is mute. It doesnt matter whether its .45, .40 or 9mm. Big and slow vs is small and fast. What matters is physics. What energy does the bullet have at impact. Thats what gives the ablility to do damage. More energy more damage. So if the energy is the same there isnt much to discuss.

For example comparing a 45, 9 and 40:

A 230 gr bullet traveling 850 fps has 368fbs of energy
A 115 gr bullet traveling 1200 fps has 367fbs
A 165 gr bullet traveling 1050 fps has 403 fbs

Basically all are equal. One isnt going to kill any faster than any other. If anything the .40 has the edge, but barely.

So pick the one you shoot the best, thats all that matters. The only time bigger is better is if you are talking energy, then yes, bigger (more) is better. Me personally, I like the .40 cuz thats what I shoot best.

Jumping in front of a ferrari going 80 or a mack trucking going 50 will get you the same. Dead.

Thats my take.

 

[braindead0]

A .357 is more likely to "stop" than a .38 Special? Even if the weapons in question are a .357 snubbie with a 1.5 inch barrel and a .38spcl with a 5 inch barrel?

Yes, a proper .357 load out of a 1.5 inch tube is going to have more energy than a .38+P.. by proper I mean fast burning powder. I only lose 30fps when going from 4" to 2" using Bullseye powder...

 

[Zak Smith]

macd,

What matters is physics. What energy does the bullet have at impact. Thats what gives the ablility to do damage. More energy more damage. So if the energy is the same there isnt much to discuss.

No!

From the USDOJ "Handgun Wounding Factors enf Effectiveness", Firearms Training Unit, FBI, 1989 ( http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm ):

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." 42,43 Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not
acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.

The only "stopping" mechanisms in handgun-class calibers:

Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.

In short: you must destroy the CNS (central nervous system) or cause bleed out (which takes time) to force a stop. The assailent may stop of his own accord, but that would be a conscious choice on his part - not something you can count on.

Some things I've written on previous threads on TFL:

If we want to study how "stopping" or incapacitating takes places, we need to know the physical mechanisms that occur that effect the stop. Furthermore, we should be able to measure those mechanisms. Once we understand the mechanisms of stopping or incapacitating, we can create a test which can measure one or more of those effects in a test material. If done carefully, we can be assured that a result of X in the test media will map to result X in an assailent. Repeat for all the known mechanisms.

The problem with many "stopping power" metrics is that they are either too abstract, biased, or not connected with any physical effect related to "stopping".

By "abstract", I mean things like kinetic energy or momentum. We have arguments like "light and fast" vs. "big and slow." Without any more data, these particular arguments are not based on physical effects.

By "biased", I mean the metric is based on a data collection methodology that is inherently flawed. The recent thread on the M&S OSS numbers brought to light some serious problems with that metric.

Finally, by "not connected with any physical effect related to 'stopping'", I mean things we talk about for which there is no known mechanism linking them to incapacitation. It is possible that "energy dump", to the extent that it does not induce tissue damage, is in this category.

-z

 

[COHIBA]

energy can only be transfered. a hot 357 that passes completly through a person expends no more energy than a 38 or a 9mm that also passes through. each bullet contains a certain amount of residual energy. the percentage of which may indeed be greater in the hot 357, but nonetheless, wasted on the final resting place.
that said. the round that most certainly expends its entire energy into said target would appear to have the edge.
but wait. 365 foot pounds of energy transfered into a 400 pound mans buttocks is no more a stopper than a 125 pound transfer to the same area.
alas we end at the same place this argument always ends...
bullet placement.
BUT WAIT...
does that mean that a 25ACP to the forehead is a sure stopper?
what about a 44rem mag in the guts?
each bullet cal, weight, design along with each bullet placement, angle, deflection along w/ each persons mass, bone structure, attitude...
too many variables to EVER answer the "what one round" question.
as i said before
your life, your choice.
for me?
4"BBL 200 gr JHP at 920-950 fps and a darn good follow up shot.

 

[English John]

Questions.....

If pure total energy is the answer, why don't we all carry a Dirty Harry .44 Mag.? (or nowadays, a .454, a .480, or .50 something?)

If total penetration is the answer, why don't we all carry 9mm titanium hardball? (That should go deep, but leave a tiny hole.)

If so many people die from the .22, why don't we all carry that? (Sure would be easier.)

The FBI went from the 9mm Win. Silvertip in 1986 to a full size-full power 10mm for people of all sizes and genders to carry concealed. How smart was that? (Remember in 1986 the answer was EXPANSION and that is what the Win. ST was designed to do at that time, plus the famous shot had to penetrate an arm before it entered the torso (really not bad penetration).) Yes they did eventually change, but the guy that picked the 10mm LIKED the 10mm.

How deep are the "vital organs"? 12"? 18"? How many people are 18" thick? (Remember there are TWO scenarios. LEO might have to penetrate a door, window, arm, etc., from any angle. 2nd gun or civilians tend to shoot front to front- different needs.)

Is Marshall right? Will the next guy you shoot act exactly like the last one?

Is Fackler right? How many BGs are the same homogenous material w/o bones, or tissue of different density?

Is Sanow right? How many targets wear denim? Or not?

Don't they all contribute SOMETHING? Or do you have your favorite to the exclusion of all others? (Can we say "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts!?)

Choose your favorite gunfighter. Does it matter if he has a .38, .357, 9 or 10mm, .44 or .45, or whatever? A revolver, SA Auto, DAO, 1911, S&W, Beretta, CZ, Glock? (Sorry if I left out your favorite. Mine is a 1911.) (Didn't Elmer Keith like a great big hole, properly placed?)

Now do you see why I rate bullet placement so highly? (A hit in the chest is better than the arm.)

To plagerize a line from Massad Ayhoob: You need "mental awareness and preparedness, tactics, and skill with the equipment". Notice the equipment is LAST.

If YOU like it, why don't YOU carry it? (Assuming you don't have to carry something issued.) Carry what YOU have confidence in.

(Missouri Mule, can't you do better? I had hoped you had more to contribute.)

 

[Newton]

This is so, so, silly.

I would say that it's somewhat unlikely that you could take 7 hits from .45ACP hardball in the chest and survive. No matter where they hit you, if it's in the thoracic area, you'll bleed out very fast, and just how was he managing to breathe with a double pneumo thorax, or did all seven group in one lung. It just doesn't sound right.

The .45 causes collosal wound trauma, and yes, a hot 9mm JHP really makes a mess too.

What we tend to forget is that everything from .22LR to .500 Linebaugh will kill you with surprising efficiency, it's all about how long it takes the victim to get there, and the .45 does it faster than most.

Newton

 

[COHIBA]

i want a 1911 w/ a 17 remington conversion. zero penetration just big nasty craters on the surface.

 

[bigjim]

Cohiba said: zero penetration just big nasty craters on the surface.

How did we drag Michael Moore into this?

 

[cratz2]

I think a lot of folks need to read even more rubish and have it ready as regurgitation material for these threads.

It's outlandish to think that in 7 rounds of 45 ball, none would completely penetrate. It's foolish to believe that the only thing that matters is energy at the moment of impact.

#1 reason the bad guy stops: He had spinal or brain damage. He's dead before gravity takes over. That's why most SWAT and special operators shoot for the ocular cranial cavity.

#2 reason the bad guy stops: He's never been shot before and he finds out it hurt's like a female dog. He'd rather be taken than suffer that again.

#3 reason the bad guy stops: Several officers point guns in his face. Most encounters don't even involve shots being fired.

These books almost always have extreme cases. A guy that takes 7 rounds of ball and calmly walks to the hospital a couple miles away.

In the Miami shootout, a guy that takes 15 rounds from pistols and shotguns and wounds and kills several officers before being taken out with they also rarely point out that the two agents that were killed, were killed with the 223 rifle, not the 357 Magnums and shotguns that wounded the other five agents. Also, usually not noted is that it was a spinal/neck wound that finally stopped the bad guy and was from a lowly 38 Special, granted +P.

Guns hurt. Guns kill. If you happen to use a handgun to divert a crime from happening to you, there's greater than a 95% chance that you won't have to fire a single shot. If keep two shots in the center of mass, there is a very very good chance that the bad guy will cause you no additional harm. Simple as that. 9mm, 10mm, 40S&W, 45ACP, 357 Magnum, 357 SIG... probably doesn't change the overall percentages more than 1%.

 

[ACP]

bigjim -- lol!!

 

[nickname]

Numerous well-documented cases

exist, where in the entire charge of buckshot, at a very few yards' range, from a 12 gauge, to the chest, did not stop a man. One of the most famous was the case wherein Jim Cirillo, the late 60's stakeout specialist for NYPD, in Harlem, shot a guy in the chest with his 14" barreled Ithaca 12 gauge, at a range of about 6 ft. Jim said he saw a bloody rathole thru the man. The guy turned and ran, and Jim again shot him in the chest, and the guy just kept on running. Jim's partner fired at the guy, with a .38 special,and the guy fell, because the .38 broke his hip. The guy came up on his hands and knees, and Jim shot him yet again, but a glass door took most of the buckshot's energy. The guy came back up on his hands and knees yet again, and said:"Hey man, that's enough", and died in the ambulance. So it is not smart to be kidding yourself about the "power" of .45 fmj.

I believe that I also read of some militia-type, who, when confronted by the cops, said:" I don't think so", and reached for his openly worn pistol. The cops had to hit him with something over 20 rds to stop him. I forget the caliber or the load that the cops were using, but it sure wasn't .22's, or .32's. I have several times shot groundhogs with .45 fmj's, swc's, and lrn's, and all they did was roll and get back on their feet. Those sorts of loads are nothing much in the stopping-effect department.

 

[krept]

Some M&S rehash:
If the story is true, it is still as meaningless as stories about people who have survived falling from aircraft without parachutes. It might happen, but it is go guarantee.

Perfect analogy, thanks. If anything short of a bomb could get an OSS, it should be the Earth after a body reaches terminal velocity.

Lets see... that would be a 502,239,819 caliber bullet moving at roughly 250fps (skydiver). Dirt/water jacketed, iron core. I don't even want to get into the weight in grains (5.972e24 kg)

cheers

 

[COHIBA]

let me say this again for those who have never heard it.
a pistol is an intermediate weapon whose sole purpose is to allow you to get to a bigger gun.

 

[HKcenterMass]

Well, guess i'll toss this piss poor USP .45 cal. I didnt realize what a piece of crap the cartridge was. no wonder its a 10+1, with 11 rounds, I might only have to spend one round from my backup weapon.

 

[bigjim]

Hkcentermass said: Well, guess i'll toss this piss poor USP .45 cal. I didnt realize what a piece of crap the cartridge was. no wonder its a 10+1, with 11 rounds, I might only have to spend one round from my backup weapon.

Don't throw it away. But if you are going to be in a gunfight and can manage to have a rifle you will be better off.

Think of chopping down a tree. You can do it with a swiss army knife. But a big *** chainsaw or some C4 is faster.

I carry a handgun when I am damn sure I am safe. If I think there is any danger I will first try not to be there! Failing that, i want a battle rifle and close air support.

At the very least however you should upgrade to a 1911.

 

[HKcenterMass]

Righto, rifle is the way to go... perhaps an MP5 would be a decent compromise.

...1911s are beautiful guns, one day I'll get one, hopefully, a Colt, but right now, my USP will do everything the 1911 will. or maybe a Kimber, those are pretty sweet too. ( iknow, i'm a gramatic disaster)

 

[John G]

Well I'm sold. This unconfirmed story has persuaded me to ditch the .45 and 9mm for good.

Looks like the Buckmark is my new carry piece!

 

[Selfdfenz]

How could this impact tactical thinking in the Military?
MarkII or Buckmark??

Sarget Carter "And Pyle you are issued Trailside Model 22 serial number POP36734GUN. Step to the next table and they will issue you your brick of SS109-22 ammo and one magazine. Toss that M9 in the empty ammo crate."
Private Pyle"Gaaaallee!"

S-