So I have this rookie cop and we are discussing calibers...yeah, one of those threads

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orangeninja

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So I have this rookie cop working for me who is a huge advocate of a .45, even though he is thin as a rail and recoil is a bit of a factor for him. We were given a scenario of engaging 4 hostiles while seated in a car, (Crap odds) and the question arose of your choice of weapon. Myself being a pragmatic said "MP5"....however I was told to pick a pistol, choices being

9mm high cap 15 rounds +

.40 S&W with 12 rounds +

.45 with 7 rounds +

My second choice was the 9mm, his was the .45. To each their own I suppose but then the debate went to "stopping power" with anecdotal stories about "well once I shot a dog with a .45 and killed it instantly" dog weight 45 lbs. Then he said "and I shot a pig with a 115gr. FMJ 9mm and he got ten feet before dropping" pig weighed 75 pounds. That plus the Marshall and Sanow books and street stops etc.

Which gets me to thinking...how many cops do you suppose are killed because when they fire their weapon, they are trained to think the bad guy will just stop because they are carrying a (fill in the blank)?

How many cops could have been saved if they just simply kept firing until the threat was alleviated?

How many cops could have been saved had they not run out of ammo at the exact worst moment?

How many cops could have been saved had they been able to accurately fire their weapon with either hand, one handed, effectively without recoil being a decisively negative factor?

So I give this guy a boatload of documentation regarding handgun wounding ballistics....

does anyone else despair at the outdated "wisdom" of Jeff Cooper (.45 ACP 1911 in 230 gr. hardball) or Elmer Keith (.44 Special wadcutters) etc.
 
does anyone else despair at the outdated "wisdom" of Jeff Cooper (.45 ACP 1911 in 230 gr. hardball) or Elmer Keith (.44 Special wadcutters) etc
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You have to remember that back in the 80's when PD were switching to "Wonder 9's" there wasn't any good defence loads for 9mm.

The one shot stop is a myth. Cooper himself trained people to fire two shots at once, and a third to the head if needed.

-Bill
 
6 rules for engagement

Rule 1. Bullet placement

Rule 2. Bullet placement

rule 3. Bullet placement

Rule 4. If there is confusion about rule number three, refer to rule number one.

Rule 5. There ain't no rule number 5

Rule 6. Choice of caliber vs magazine capacity. Refer to rule number one. You are still confused.
 
does anyone else despair at the outdated "wisdom" of Jeff Cooper (.45 ACP 1911 in 230 gr. hardball) or Elmer Keith (.44 Special wadcutters) etc.
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Just how is it outdated?
 
Not necessarily outdated in itself, but outdated in comparison to the other cartridges available now.

I'm not sure Mr Cooper wouldn't consider some of the newer loadings and bullet designs if the evaluation was done today, on a fair basis.

All of the arguments for .45 (big hole) are still certainly true, but I suspect
that if the .40 or the .357Sig, or even some of the new performance 9mm defense loads were around then at least the disdain shown for anything other than .45 might not be so strong.

Remember, Mr Cooper was not afraid of new technology, look at the 10mm back then. He was sold on that, so there was room for something other than .45; just in those days the selection was thin.
 
You're seated in a car and you're gonna take on 4 bad guys with guns? You're going to need more than a pistol, like maybe the good sense to hit the gas and come back later with help.
 
Remember they were both big bore fans. So even with the cartridges of today they would most likely still be looking at the biggest bullet using the best technology. That would still give them the biggest wound.
Cooper's acceptance of the 10mm and Keith wanting to use the .45, but not having a suitable revolver shows they preferred the large bores.
 
"You're seated in a car and you're gonna take on 4 bad guys with guns? You're going to need more than a pistol, like maybe the good sense to hit the gas and come back later with help."


You got that right, thus my first answer....MP5 if it had to go to guns.

Techbrute...that would be 16 someones sir. :evil:
 
Many years ago I participated in a conversation with Jim Cirillo where the IPSC motto of DVC (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas - Accuracy, Power, Speed) came up. The popular interpretation in IPSC at the time was that they were equally important and must be balanced. Jim’s opinion was a bit different. According to him (and if I remember correctly), if we rule out the fights that the loser didn’t know were happening (lack of awareness and tactics) most gunfights are lost because of lack of accuracy, some are lost because of lack of speed, but relatively few are lost because of a lack of power. In reading after action reports since then his analysis seems to hold up.
All of which does not mean that bigger, faster, and more is not a good thing. :evil:
 
You're seated in a car and you're gonna take on 4 bad guys with guns
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Hmm ... I'm thinking I'm going to go "slow and heavy" and hit them with the largest projectile at my disposal ... the Crown Vic
 
Which gets me to thinking...how many cops do you suppose are killed because when they fire their weapon, they are trained to think the bad guy will just stop because they are carrying a (fill in the blank)?
Click to expand...

Altough the deputy didn't get killed we had something like that happen here. Deputy pull up and sees a murder take place (original call was domestic). Deputy fires one round from a Glock 45, hits said guy in the chest guy falls down. Deputy gets back in car to request ambulance rest of the world, etc. when he keeps hearing something. Deputy realises that the guy has gotten back up and is shooting at him. Deputy shoots him a couple of more times and the guys gets a bad case of the DRT's.
 
I think that the choices should have been

9mm 17+1
40S&W 15+1
or
45ACP 14+1 like my para

Given those choices, and having (or had in the case of the 40) guns with those capacities, I would choice the 45 every time.
 
"We were given a scenario of engaging 4 hostiles while seated in a car, (Crap odds) and the question arose of your choice of weapon."

What you really want as a sidearm is one that's high capacity, with high performance ammo, re able to penetrate barriers. IE Good Bullets and Lots of Them.

An Officer faced almost this same scenario in real life and dominated the fight from inside his car, against 3 armed BGs, with a high cap .45 and good, penetrating .45 ammo. He engaged through his own windshield.

It can be done.

Dave Williams
 
I remember reading that the average 9mm has 300 foot pounds of energy or something close to that.

And then reading in the same article that the average Honda moving at 30mph has 30,000 foot pounds of energy.... I would be running over the bad guys with the Crown Vic too as I pulled my gun.

Ironically that article was talking about carjackings or shootouts around cars, where people would dive out of the car shooting, when they're generally better drivers than shooters (more practice) and the car has much better "stopping power" and they should have run the guy in front of the car with the gun over, not gotten out of the car and started shooting. :)
 
I think that the choices should have been

9mm 17+1
40S&W 15+1
or
45ACP 14+1 like my para
Click to expand...
Exactly. Or the "rookie" if "stuck" with a 7+1 .45, would certinly have extra mags, right?
 
Crown Vic vs Ricer with Gangbangers
Not only does the auto have more stopping power...it has more squishing power, smashing power, roll-over & pancake him power, and throw it in reverse & make sure the job is done power.

Hafta Use a Gun
OK, if I hafta use a gun, the MP5 would be good...but a M4 would be better. A shotgun with an extended mag tube & slugs might be best.

Not to knock the MP5 in 9mm, which I think is a good round & wonderful platform, but I think having to engage hostiles at range through angled auto glass or through auto steel calls for more penetration than I would comfortably get from 9mm. 5.56mm would help in the penetration game and is on par with the MP5 in capacity. 12ga brenneke slugs have serious penetration & the stopping power debate ...stops here. Capacity is less in comparison to the MP5 & M4, however.

Hafta Use a Pistol
It has been a long time since I read up on hollow point effectiveness vs auto glass. I guess I would want the round with the best penetration through the glass and/or bent metal of the doors.

If they (9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP) are all about equal WRT auto glass & etc., I'd probably choose the .45ACP, as I can get high-capacity platforms that shoot it (Glock, Para, HK), if I so desire. .45ACP recoil is negligible, IMO, from a service-weapon sized platform.

All this would be moot, if I could carry a pitsol chambered in 10mm....
 
Crown Vic vs Ricer with Gangbangers
Not only does the auto have more stopping power...it has more squishing power, smashing power, roll-over & pancake him power, and throw it in reverse & make sure the job is done power.
Click to expand...

I think these words of wisdom should be carved on a stone tablet somewhere. I particularly liked the 'squishing' mental image, there.
 
Facing four armed bad guys, odds are three will get out of dodge when you down the first one. However, four determined and armed bad guys is another story.

Based on what I learned in the Marines, the first thing that needs to be done in the above situation (four determined and armed bad guys after you while you are seated in a parked car) is that you need to start shooting. Like, right now and keep shooting. I hesitate to use the term "suppressive fire" but I think that's close to what I'm getting at here. I think the best course of action would be to shoot as fast as you can, while maintaining accuracy. I think the above situation can be effectively handled with 8 rounds of .45ACP. I think the advantage to more ammunition is primarily that it allows you to increase your volume of fire, decreasing accuracy and your hit-to-miss ratio, while still scoring hits by virtue of more rounds fired.

That said, Sgt. Alvin C. York faced six determined bad guys with weapons charging his position and did fine with his 7 rounds of .45 :D (But I wouldn't suggest attempting to re-create that feat!!!)
 
Re: Crown vic

Somewhere on the web there is a cool video clip of Canadian police capturing a BG with the cruiser; pinning him against a bike stand.
 
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