But as a kid, I didn't know the difference. I remember seeing these advertised in some magazines, too, but I can't remember which ones. It's amazing how little things like this can fuel the imagination. I thought the whole notion was pretty cool...
The best survival firearm - a .22LR rifle?
- Thread starter cluttonfred
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But as a kid, I didn't know the difference. I remember seeing these advertised in some magazines, too, but I can't remember which ones. It's amazing how little things like this can fuel the imagination. I thought the whole notion was pretty cool...
You may be thinking about this instead.
sixgun_grunt
Member
what about 2 Pistols ? a lightweight acurate 22 with a few hundred rounds for food, and a 357 or 44mag to defend against two and 4 legged threats, this setup probably would'nt weigh much more than a rifle with the right choices
Thanks, hso...I remember that one, too, but I recall the AR-5/7 at least in ads advertised as a "pilot survival weapon". I think only the Israelis ever used it for this purpose (it seems that the USAF never had the funding for the AR-5).
jimmyraythomason
Member
IF I am put into a survival situation and IF I can only have ONE firearm for both food acquition and self defense I would choose a .22lr auto-loader with an ample supply of 40gr solid CCI Mini-mags. Personal choice would be a Marlin Model 60 or Winchester Model 190. More ammo capacity than a Ruger 10/22 and no detachable magazine to loose.
christcorp
Member
The 22lr in rifle format, is DEFINITELY the best "Survival" caliber/weapon. And if people say it isn't, then they don't understand "Survival". We're not talking about "Urban Self Defense". We're not talking about some TV UN-reality show. Survival is for whatever reason, ending up in an environment where normal food, water, and shelter are not available. And as a second thought, safety from others in the same boat as you who may try to take what you have. There are plenty of reasons the 22lr is the perfect caliber/rifle for survival.
1. Ammunition is cheap. A 500 round brick for $20 is more than you'll probably ever need.
2. 22LR is quiet. You can shoot something and not draw attention.
3. 22LR is very effective at shooting ANY size game animal if done properly. i.e. shoot a deer in the head at 50 yards.
4. If you miss an animal, you don't disturb the entire forest, and getting to another form of food is not difficult.
5. 22LR is easy to carry. It isn't heavy. It's small. 50 rounds take up the space of a zippo lighter.
6. Carry a handgun in a traditional "Self Defense" caliber ONLY against other people.
The 22LR is the PERFECT survival caliber. Everyone should have a 22LR Rifle and 1 brick of 22LR ammunition. There is absolutely no reason not to. Even in a populated area, if there aren't the conveniences of supermarkets and such, a 22LR can take out MANY forms of food. Birds, rabbits, dog, cat, squirrel, etc...
1. Ammunition is cheap. A 500 round brick for $20 is more than you'll probably ever need.
2. 22LR is quiet. You can shoot something and not draw attention.
3. 22LR is very effective at shooting ANY size game animal if done properly. i.e. shoot a deer in the head at 50 yards.
4. If you miss an animal, you don't disturb the entire forest, and getting to another form of food is not difficult.
5. 22LR is easy to carry. It isn't heavy. It's small. 50 rounds take up the space of a zippo lighter.
6. Carry a handgun in a traditional "Self Defense" caliber ONLY against other people.
The 22LR is the PERFECT survival caliber. Everyone should have a 22LR Rifle and 1 brick of 22LR ammunition. There is absolutely no reason not to. Even in a populated area, if there aren't the conveniences of supermarkets and such, a 22LR can take out MANY forms of food. Birds, rabbits, dog, cat, squirrel, etc...
husbandofaromanian
Member
I am an enthusiast of the 22lr. I have A TC Contender Pistol with a 10.5" barrel and a silencer.
People on this thread have been stating that a rifle gets much more velocity & power than a pistol.
That may be with a short barrel pistol, but my 10.5" will get very close to what a 24" gets with a standard velocity round.
I can hit my 11" steel gong at 300 yards with my pistol 4 times out of 5 in windless conditions (using Eley Tenex Pistol ammunitioin).
In short, with 22lr, I consider any barrel length over 10 - 12 inches a waste because your not getting much more velocity.
People on this thread have been stating that a rifle gets much more velocity & power than a pistol.
That may be with a short barrel pistol, but my 10.5" will get very close to what a 24" gets with a standard velocity round.
I can hit my 11" steel gong at 300 yards with my pistol 4 times out of 5 in windless conditions (using Eley Tenex Pistol ammunitioin).
In short, with 22lr, I consider any barrel length over 10 - 12 inches a waste because your not getting much more velocity.
Everyone's "survival-guns-for-the-boonies" preferences are different. Some people who actually go out in rough areas and at times when they might have to depend on their firearms, have some personal opinions on having "B.T.-D.T."
I know a man who lives in a rural area of central eastern Idaho, who is a full time professional trapper. He's been doing it for many years. Those who know that area there know it is remote, rugged, and can be very unforgiving. Heavy snowstorms are not at all unusual.
Aside from there being many Black bears, mountain lions, and wolves, there are some Grizzly bears there.
He runs his traplines in the winter using his dogs and sled, going out for days at a time in whatever weather is happening.
Always on his waist belt is a holstered Ruger Mark I .22 pistol, 6" bbl., a small personalized "survival" kit, and a large Bowie style knife.
He also carries an SKS semi-auto rifle, 7.62x39, loaded with ten pointed soft point cartridges . I've talked with him about his firearms, and he says that those two firearms will get him out of any situation he'll get in. The SKS will take an unbelievable beating, he said, and keep on "shootin."
His many-years experience out in the "far beyond" of the Idaho and Wyoming mountains, causes me to put great stock in his selection of "survival guns."
FWIW.
L.W.
I know a man who lives in a rural area of central eastern Idaho, who is a full time professional trapper. He's been doing it for many years. Those who know that area there know it is remote, rugged, and can be very unforgiving. Heavy snowstorms are not at all unusual.
Aside from there being many Black bears, mountain lions, and wolves, there are some Grizzly bears there.
He runs his traplines in the winter using his dogs and sled, going out for days at a time in whatever weather is happening.
Always on his waist belt is a holstered Ruger Mark I .22 pistol, 6" bbl., a small personalized "survival" kit, and a large Bowie style knife.
He also carries an SKS semi-auto rifle, 7.62x39, loaded with ten pointed soft point cartridges . I've talked with him about his firearms, and he says that those two firearms will get him out of any situation he'll get in. The SKS will take an unbelievable beating, he said, and keep on "shootin."
His many-years experience out in the "far beyond" of the Idaho and Wyoming mountains, causes me to put great stock in his selection of "survival guns."
FWIW.
L.W.
The Highlander
Member
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First thing I thought of when I saw the thread title:
http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/v-shrake/m6.html
edit: looks like HSO beat me to it.
http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/v-shrake/m6.html
edit: looks like HSO beat me to it.
jimmyraythomason
Member
I'll stick with my Mini-mags thanks. They perform great and I TRUST them. It's a survival situation,I don't want to rely on anything I haven't proven.
pikid89
Member
ill take my stainless 10/22 with the tech sights, i can hit pvc glue cans at 150 yards all day with those
oh and a couple of bricks
oh and a couple of bricks
As per the original question , as someone with extensive experience in bear country ,both in the northcountry and the lower 48. The only earthly use for pepperspray in a bear confrontation scenario is to utilise as seasoning of yourself to give the bear a treat for his palate.
Feel free to differ in opinion of you wish , but personally I'd prefer to have something capable of actually stopping the bear ,within the lower 48 a handgun is sufficient ( Redhawk in .44 mag , Blackhawk ,model 29 etc. perhaps .45 colt ,.45acp in a pinch) within the context of the far north while I admittedly always carried a handgun ( the aforementioned Redhawk or Blackhawk) a Marlin 95 in .45-70 or my BAR in .338 mag with modified 8 round clips was always a distinct comfort.
Many folks who have never been there have no concept of the actual size of a Brownie , or a Tetons and north Grizzly for that matter. And even a 150 lb Black bear is quite a dangerous proposition if you get on his/her wrong side.
And frankly small things such as keeping a clean camp can reduce possible bear conflict a great deal.
B.
Feel free to differ in opinion of you wish , but personally I'd prefer to have something capable of actually stopping the bear ,within the lower 48 a handgun is sufficient ( Redhawk in .44 mag , Blackhawk ,model 29 etc. perhaps .45 colt ,.45acp in a pinch) within the context of the far north while I admittedly always carried a handgun ( the aforementioned Redhawk or Blackhawk) a Marlin 95 in .45-70 or my BAR in .338 mag with modified 8 round clips was always a distinct comfort.
Many folks who have never been there have no concept of the actual size of a Brownie , or a Tetons and north Grizzly for that matter. And even a 150 lb Black bear is quite a dangerous proposition if you get on his/her wrong side.
And frankly small things such as keeping a clean camp can reduce possible bear conflict a great deal.
B.
OP
OP
cluttonfred
Member
Cosmoline and Bluenote, I respect your opinions, but I think we also have to admit that "folks with an interest in guns resist the idea that the guns may not be the best solution" is at least as believable as "it's all a government conspiracy."
If anyone is interested, here is a link to a detailed article about the research I had in mind. The complete scientific journal article is here. The abstract is available but you need to pay for the full text.
If anyone is interested, here is a link to a detailed article about the research I had in mind. The complete scientific journal article is here. The abstract is available but you need to pay for the full text.
AKElroy
Member
+1 to the .22 & several bricks of ammo. I can keep the pot full of bunnies & squirrels forever with an accurate rig. I could eat for 2 months on just the tree rats in my backyard. In a true survival situation, I would not hesitate to take ear-shots on whitetail & ferral hog sized game.
For those voting for a centerfire anything, I would add the consideration of durability and barrel life to the mix.
For those voting for a centerfire anything, I would add the consideration of durability and barrel life to the mix.
pikid89
Member
not a terribly hot idea
I shot a 150lb south florida boar in the base of the ear with a maximag at 5 yards and it shook its head like a cartoon and walked off...took a 270 plus 3 22mag plus 2 .40s&w for it to finally die
Dewey123
Member
A couple of you mentioned the M6, does anyone still make it?
AKElroy
Member
Agreed. No where even close to ideal, but in a survival situation I would do it. Last year, I helped put down 5 hogs in a trap. I was shooting a 5" 1911 w/ 230 gr ball, my buddy was shooting a .22 pistol. My head shots bounced off, his behind the ear shots were lights-out. Once I adopted that shot, mine were lights out as well. It's all about placement, and that quarter-sized kill zone on hogs will do the trick if you can hit it, even with a rimfire.
Fair enough , but I've been in three specific situations wherein the bear ended up shot and in none of them do I feel the spray would have helped to any degree , there wasn't enough time , in the first I was checking a trapline on the west side of Paxson lake ( just below Paxson and maybe only three miles in from the Richardson hwy) I had glassed the particular set and noted a Marten in the trap , I always glass a set prior to checking as if it's not tripped there is no reason to disturb a given set , to make a long story short , as I was clearing said set a sow appeared out of the brush about fifteen feet downhill from where I was , three things are at work here.. A. you will never outrun any bear that's downhill from you .B. backtracking her later clearly showed that she had been shadowing me and had circled and approached from the direction of the most cover, C, *ANY* bear that's out and about at that time of year ( January) and gets that close to a human *will* be dangerous , I admit that I didn't wait all that long , when she made her first jump I didn't wait to ascertain if it was a false charge , I shot her three times in the head with a 300 grain hornaday XTP over 20.5 grains of ww296 and ran to my right and turned down hill , she tried to turn but piled up and died. And frankly if there had been anything resident in my bowels it would have been in my pants , as it was I broke my own rules of no fires or tobacco on my string and built a fire ,boiled tea and smoked about five damn cigarettes in a row , then left and came back and ran the rest of my string the next day.
The other incidents were one on Kodiak where a male got into my cousins corral and killed one horse and would have likely killed the other two , he didn't split when a .338 mag was fired into the air , he was shot three times with a .338 and twice with a .416 rem mag. And note that this was in November when most of the bears have gone down for the winter ,upon examination by fish and game he was found to have one side of his jaw with the teeth completely rotted away.
The third incident was when a mature boar charged a party of us shore fishing on the bottom end of Baranof out of Port Alexander about a mile , he literally came busting out of the brush line and charged downhill at six of us at full speed , and since *nobody* in their right mind fishes on that end of the island without a firearm he literally go sieved and piled up perhaps 50 or 60 feet from us.
And in none of these cases would pepper spray have been of any benefit. And note the distance of application in the study you cite. 12 feet average? It better if the bear is only 12 feet from you , because even if you already had a firearm deployed the bear could easily get you even if you hit him fatally before he died.
Where I am now it's just black bears , generally you can yell GIT and they'll make tracks in a hurry , a sow with cubs might be problematic potentially but the danger hear within the context of the backcountry is not the bears but instead the MASSIVE population of large economy sized hogs.
So I do hear what you're saying on the spray , and it could possibly be a good addition to ones kit , but personally I'd want it to have a greater range.
And folks can feel free to call me a sissy if they wish , but a close encounter with a large bear will scare you out of ten years growth , make your hair turn white ,make you drop your water and if you don't crap your pants it'll make that area of the body clamp so tight that on your next bowel evacuation you'll crap out a diamond.
B.
As for the pilot survival rifle, I thought this was a great idea when I was kid. When I became a Naval Aviator, I thought otherwise. After putting on a G-suit, a torso harness, and an SV-2 that weighed ~30 lbs., the last thing I wanted to carry into the cockpit was a 22LR rifle (not that it would've fit in there to begin with). If I had to eject or ditch, I would have to trust the SV-2 goodies like my knife and Beretta (if on a combat flight; no combat = no pistol).
Officers'Wife
Member
Giving what I've been taught, if I were to depend on a firearm I would want either a 32-20 or a 30 cal carbine. Either would have enough Ummp for deer size game and two legged vermin yet small enough for smaller game such as rabbit or squirrel.
For true survival- I would use the skills my father and uncle taught me that they learned growing up in the Black Hills of South Dakota. The most deadly and useful weapon is the cubic centimeters located inside your skull.
For true survival- I would use the skills my father and uncle taught me that they learned growing up in the Black Hills of South Dakota. The most deadly and useful weapon is the cubic centimeters located inside your skull.
christcorp
Member
"Survival" is not about bears and critters. Those are situations where you have a choice. Survival is about not having choices. Or at least not having the choices you'd prefer or were used to.
I'm from Wyoming. Lived here a very long time. And I know the country. From the plains of Cheyenne, to the Black Hills, to the Tetons, and down to the snowy range. When I'm thinking "Survival", I'm not talking about someone who decides to move to the remotest part of nature (Like my sister in law and her husband did) and live without electricity and totally natural. I'm talking being pushed into a situation not of your choosing. Not because you were hiking/camping and got lost or stuck in a storm. Keep your wits about you, and you can survive those situations easily.
True survival is situations that create a break down in society or similar. The "Red Dawn" effect. Could an argument be made for more than one gun? Sure, probably. But if I was pushed into the Laramie Peak, Tetons, Yellowstone, or Black Hills areas and had to survive while maintaining a low profile, the 22LR rifle is what I want. If there is no social system or legal system to maintain order, then the 22LR is what I want. Any similar situation where I HAVE to rely on myself 100%, and there's no one else to help me, then the 22LR is what I want. Even in an urban/suburban setting.
I've lived around and hunted bears. 99.9% of the time, they or ANY critter don't even want to get near humans. Unless you're stupid enough to hang your food or trash at your tent or cabin. But that isn't survival. That's a totally different scenario. That's why I hunt deer, antelope, elk, moose, bear, sheep, etc... with 7mm magnums. But when I don't want to be found, but I want to survive, I will take the 22LR any day of the week.
I'm from Wyoming. Lived here a very long time. And I know the country. From the plains of Cheyenne, to the Black Hills, to the Tetons, and down to the snowy range. When I'm thinking "Survival", I'm not talking about someone who decides to move to the remotest part of nature (Like my sister in law and her husband did) and live without electricity and totally natural. I'm talking being pushed into a situation not of your choosing. Not because you were hiking/camping and got lost or stuck in a storm. Keep your wits about you, and you can survive those situations easily.
True survival is situations that create a break down in society or similar. The "Red Dawn" effect. Could an argument be made for more than one gun? Sure, probably. But if I was pushed into the Laramie Peak, Tetons, Yellowstone, or Black Hills areas and had to survive while maintaining a low profile, the 22LR rifle is what I want. If there is no social system or legal system to maintain order, then the 22LR is what I want. Any similar situation where I HAVE to rely on myself 100%, and there's no one else to help me, then the 22LR is what I want. Even in an urban/suburban setting.
I've lived around and hunted bears. 99.9% of the time, they or ANY critter don't even want to get near humans. Unless you're stupid enough to hang your food or trash at your tent or cabin. But that isn't survival. That's a totally different scenario. That's why I hunt deer, antelope, elk, moose, bear, sheep, etc... with 7mm magnums. But when I don't want to be found, but I want to survive, I will take the 22LR any day of the week.
A .22lr? Definitely.
When I read the article about the idiot from the UK who couldn't even make it three months in the wilderness of Canada, in spite of being fully equipped and having a 12 ga., that was my comment:
http://communionblog.wordpress.com/2009/08/26/what-kind-of-idiot/
I mean, really. A .22lr will do what needs doin'. *Maybe* I'd go for a .22/20ga O/U. But if I had to grab something out of the safe on the way out the door, it'd be my 10/22. If I knew I was headed to 'bear country', I might grab the .44 pistol as well. But the first thing I would go for was a good .22lr.
Jim D.
When I read the article about the idiot from the UK who couldn't even make it three months in the wilderness of Canada, in spite of being fully equipped and having a 12 ga., that was my comment:
http://communionblog.wordpress.com/2009/08/26/what-kind-of-idiot/
I mean, really. A .22lr will do what needs doin'. *Maybe* I'd go for a .22/20ga O/U. But if I had to grab something out of the safe on the way out the door, it'd be my 10/22. If I knew I was headed to 'bear country', I might grab the .44 pistol as well. But the first thing I would go for was a good .22lr.
Jim D.
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