dustind
Member
The scotus thing will probably get me to vote republican this term.
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The Bush gun myth
- Thread starter Thumper
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twoblink
Member
I have to say, if Bush signs the AWB, consider the entire country blue on the next election.
PO'ed gun owners will vote libertarian..
I for one, have not seen any reasons to vote bush rather than libertarian..
PO'ed gun owners will vote libertarian..
I for one, have not seen any reasons to vote bush rather than libertarian..
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
If Bush signs any form of the AWB then he loses my vote.
If Bush truely believes that banning weapons over absurd cosmetic criteria is a good idea, then I'm fairly confident I don't want him appointing any judges anyway.
If Bush truely believes that banning weapons over absurd cosmetic criteria is a good idea, then I'm fairly confident I don't want him appointing any judges anyway.
Lets stop for a minute and ask ourselves what exactly we are asking of Mr. Bush
All we are asking of him to do is NOTHING. How hard is that. We all do nothing throughout the day, many times not even realizing it.
For Bush to renew the ban he would have to go out of his way to do something AGAINST US, his loyal supporters! Remember that this ban represents the future of gun control in America. If we can beat it we have hope. If we can't, all will be lost in the end.
So in sumary if we can not beat a ban that dies on its own, with a republican house and with a republican senate and with a republican president, all of which are supposedly pro-gun, then what hope is there that anything will get better down the road?
I figure it like this. If he signs the renewal all is lost in the end anyway, another term of Bush may only delay it, but it will be inevitable. A Democrat would speed up the process enough to get the country into action. Clinton moved too fast and the pro-gun movement swelled. Plus if they are going to come and take your guns, when would you prefer them to do it? in 5 years or 20?
So I think it is in all of our interests to vote democratic if Bush signs the renewal.
If on the other hand it dies, for any reason, we jump on the Bush band wagon and get him re-elected. I don't see any other viable strategy to deal with the sunset
All we are asking of him to do is NOTHING. How hard is that. We all do nothing throughout the day, many times not even realizing it.
For Bush to renew the ban he would have to go out of his way to do something AGAINST US, his loyal supporters! Remember that this ban represents the future of gun control in America. If we can beat it we have hope. If we can't, all will be lost in the end.
So in sumary if we can not beat a ban that dies on its own, with a republican house and with a republican senate and with a republican president, all of which are supposedly pro-gun, then what hope is there that anything will get better down the road?
I figure it like this. If he signs the renewal all is lost in the end anyway, another term of Bush may only delay it, but it will be inevitable. A Democrat would speed up the process enough to get the country into action. Clinton moved too fast and the pro-gun movement swelled. Plus if they are going to come and take your guns, when would you prefer them to do it? in 5 years or 20?
So I think it is in all of our interests to vote democratic if Bush signs the renewal.
If on the other hand it dies, for any reason, we jump on the Bush band wagon and get him re-elected. I don't see any other viable strategy to deal with the sunset
oldfart
Member
For those of you who herald Bush as some sort of Knight in Shining Armor for signing the Texas CCW law, let me point out that Texas (and all the other states that have similar laws) now has de facto gun registration. Do we really want a Federal CCW law?
Al Norris
Member
I had no reason to vote Democrat or republican in the last election. Nothing has changed.
Mark Tyson
Member
Vote Democrat
If you do, write and let everyone know why.
auschip
Member
For those of you who herald Bush as some sort of Knight in Shining Armor for signing the Texas CCW law, let me point out that Texas (and all the other states that have similar laws) now has de facto gun registration. Do we really want a Federal CCW law?
Care to explain that one? You don't have to register any particular firearm, you can even take the class with a rental. How does that equate to registration?
Don Gwinn
Moderator Emeritus
So, Texas requires a permit ("registration") and that is somehow worse than Illinois, which does not allow carry at all, either concealed or open?
How does that work, exactly? I mean, I take your point, but trust me, it's hard for someone who has no legal right to carry to spare much concern for the evils of CCW permits. Keep it in mind.
I think we could, if "we" as gunowners would get off our collective lard butts, keep the AWB from crossing Bush's desk. That would be the best solution. I think Bush's judicial nominations have been pretty good. And frankly, the Presidency will probably never again be as important as the Supreme Court within our lifetime. Like it or not, federal judges are the most powerful people in our nation by a long shot.
How does that work, exactly? I mean, I take your point, but trust me, it's hard for someone who has no legal right to carry to spare much concern for the evils of CCW permits. Keep it in mind.
I think we could, if "we" as gunowners would get off our collective lard butts, keep the AWB from crossing Bush's desk. That would be the best solution. I think Bush's judicial nominations have been pretty good. And frankly, the Presidency will probably never again be as important as the Supreme Court within our lifetime. Like it or not, federal judges are the most powerful people in our nation by a long shot.
tiberius
Member
For those of you who herald Bush as some sort of Knight in Shining Armor for signing the Texas CCW law, let me point out that Texas (and all the other states that have similar laws) now has de facto gun registration. Do we really want a Federal CCW law?
Oldfart,
Are you even vaguley familiar with the CHL process?
The federal form (I forget the number) filled out for purchase from an FHL is quasi-registration, but a CHL has no correlation to firearm ownership.
Bush is no RKBA hero, but his support of the CHL is widely recognized as a deciding factor in his victory over Anne Richards.
Face it he's no anti, but he is a politician. If he thought he could get more votes by supporting more gun bans, then he would do it in a heartbeat. Fortunately, he doesn't seem to think that's the case right now.
Smoke
Member
I for one, have not seen any reasons to vote bush rather than libertarian..
How about "Bush can win, a Libertarian candidate can't."
Bush is not perfect, but he is better than ANY Democrat. I can't see voting Libertarian, or Democrat to make a statement. You'd be making the WRONG statement (...at least voting dem.) and end up in worse shape than you're in now.
Vote Bush in the next election. Vote Lib or Rep in the '08 election.
Sergeant Bob
Member
If Bush signs any AWB, it will be after the 2004 election. It will be too late to vote for anyone else.If Bush signs any form of the AWB then he loses my vote.
Silver Bullet
Member
This is similar to reasons put forth on this site for voting for Arnold over Tom in the California recall election. Given the statements Arnold has made regarding weapon bans since the recall, are you still okay with voting for Arnold ?How about "Bush can win, a Libertarian candidate can't."
jefmad
Member
This percpetion causes the reality. Didn't anybody notice that Tom McClintock had a higher approval rating than Arnold in the exit polls but people didn't vote for him because he "couldn't win". If voters actually started to vote on their beliefs rather than who they percieve to win a third party would become viable a lot more quickly.How about "Bush can win, a Libertarian candidate can't."
oldfart
Member
I AM an oldfart, and while I have done a lot of things in my lifetime, I haven't done 'em all. I have managed to read about a lot of the things I've missed out on though. Here's one:
When the German army moved into France and Belgium, one of the first things the commanders did was go to the local seat of government and get the lists of gunowners. European countries were (and still are) very thorough about keeping records like this. With the lists in hand, soldiers went to those homes which housed gunowners and confiscated their arms. A few hardy, but foolish, souls tried to sell the story that they no longer had those guns. They were shot.
Of course, as with any society, there were a few people who had possessed their guns without registering them. They were able to avoid that particular "knock on the door" and later, when resistance became better organized, they were the heros who were able to 'acquire' newer and better guns for their countrymen.
I don't know when this country will experience that sort of thing, but I know it will happen. So does anyone who is willing to look objectively at the events of the past seventy years and compare them to similar events in other countries and in other times.
Think about this: What if, in ten or twenty years, a squad of Pakistani soldiers wearing blue helmets surround your house and demand, on the basis of the county CCW list, that you surrender all your guns. Do you think they'll believe you when you tell them that your wife got that permit even though she didn't have agun? What would you do if you were on the other end and had to go house to house to collect weapons in Pakistan?
Those who wish to apply for and get their CCW have every right to do so. Just don't try to tell me that doing so is furthering the cause of our RKBA. The lady sitting next to you in Church may be convinced by your pleasant demeanor that licensed guns are ok, but the hard-core politician who is worried that his pet Bill is going to anger a few constituents will still try to keep guns out of the hands of all those who disagree with him.
If you want to carry a concealed gun-- then have the balls to do so! If you have to get daddy's permission first....
I give up!
When the German army moved into France and Belgium, one of the first things the commanders did was go to the local seat of government and get the lists of gunowners. European countries were (and still are) very thorough about keeping records like this. With the lists in hand, soldiers went to those homes which housed gunowners and confiscated their arms. A few hardy, but foolish, souls tried to sell the story that they no longer had those guns. They were shot.
Of course, as with any society, there were a few people who had possessed their guns without registering them. They were able to avoid that particular "knock on the door" and later, when resistance became better organized, they were the heros who were able to 'acquire' newer and better guns for their countrymen.
I don't know when this country will experience that sort of thing, but I know it will happen. So does anyone who is willing to look objectively at the events of the past seventy years and compare them to similar events in other countries and in other times.
Think about this: What if, in ten or twenty years, a squad of Pakistani soldiers wearing blue helmets surround your house and demand, on the basis of the county CCW list, that you surrender all your guns. Do you think they'll believe you when you tell them that your wife got that permit even though she didn't have agun? What would you do if you were on the other end and had to go house to house to collect weapons in Pakistan?
Those who wish to apply for and get their CCW have every right to do so. Just don't try to tell me that doing so is furthering the cause of our RKBA. The lady sitting next to you in Church may be convinced by your pleasant demeanor that licensed guns are ok, but the hard-core politician who is worried that his pet Bill is going to anger a few constituents will still try to keep guns out of the hands of all those who disagree with him.
If you want to carry a concealed gun-- then have the balls to do so! If you have to get daddy's permission first....
I give up!
7.62FullMetalJacket
Member
In Utah, CCW is called a Concealed Firearms Permit. "I" have a permit to carry a concealed firearm. I am either permitted to carry a revolver, a semi-auto, or both. "I" am not limited to a specific firearm. Therefore, "I" am registered under the permit scheme, but no guns are registered. It is conceivable that a permittee may not even own a gun. My wife qualified on the instructor's firearms.
geegee
Member
How will that work? With approximately 80mm gun owners in our country, on it's best month NRA has been able to get around 4mm of those gun owners motivated and engaged enough in the political process to join it's organization, and in doing so add some weight to it's positions. I'm not interested in turning this into a pro or con NRA thread, but point this out to say that at the end of the day (Election Day, or any other), most gun owners read in the newspaper about their latest incremental loss of firearms ownership, offer up a weak "harrrumph!" and go on about their business. Most are very content to let the rest of us do the heavy lifting for them.I have to say, if Bush signs the AWB, consider the entire country blue on the next election. PO'ed gun owners will vote libertarian..
If anyone here thinks there will be a wholesale revolt by gunowners if Bush sticks it to us on the AWB, they're delusional. The truth is, most don't care. THR members don't represent the avearge gun owner in America. I'd love nothing more than to be proven wrong on this, but I don't think I will be. geegee
auschip
Member
Those who wish to apply for and get their CCW have every right to do so. Just don't try to tell me that doing so is furthering the cause of our RKBA. The lady sitting next to you in Church may be convinced by your pleasant demeanor that licensed guns are ok, but the hard-core politician who is worried that his pet Bill is going to anger a few constituents will still try to keep guns out of the hands of all those who disagree with him.
You still haven't shown anyone how having a CHL equals gun registration (defacto or otherwise). If you believe hiding gun ownership as if it is a dirty secret that you don't want the neighbors to know is futhering the RKBA, or being arrested and convicted of a felony is the way to support the RKBA rather then going through the legal process of obtaining a permit then no amount of reason will change your mind.
geegee said:
[sigh]
Sadly - I believe you are correct sir.
If anyone here thinks there will be a wholesale revolt by gunowners if Bush sticks it to us on the AWB, they're delusional. The truth is, most don't care. THR members don't represent the avearge gun owner in America. I'd love nothing more than to be proven wrong on this, but I don't think I will be.
[sigh]
Sadly - I believe you are correct sir.
If the AWBan is resigned after 04
We will at least have many months to restock the supply of AWs and mags. We need to beat the ban altogether though.
As for the statement that Bush is better than the dems even if he signs the renewal, this is totally wrong. Bush will be signing the final death blow to the movement and begin the final move to total confiscation. He may be able to delay this for four years but after that all will be lost. As I said, if the bill is renewed, signalling the beginning of confiscation and total elimination of the rkba, I would rather it happen sooner than later while I at least have youth on my side.
Voting for Bush after the ban is renewed is pointless and only a feel good jesture. You will still lose all your guns. That's why will vote and campaign for the dems. I can't mind why anyone on this board would even thik about not doing whatever it takes to remove a politician that tries to take all their guns, but then again that is the problem with gun owners to begin with isn't it.
Either the AW Ban goes or Bush does
We will at least have many months to restock the supply of AWs and mags. We need to beat the ban altogether though.
As for the statement that Bush is better than the dems even if he signs the renewal, this is totally wrong. Bush will be signing the final death blow to the movement and begin the final move to total confiscation. He may be able to delay this for four years but after that all will be lost. As I said, if the bill is renewed, signalling the beginning of confiscation and total elimination of the rkba, I would rather it happen sooner than later while I at least have youth on my side.
Voting for Bush after the ban is renewed is pointless and only a feel good jesture. You will still lose all your guns. That's why will vote and campaign for the dems. I can't mind why anyone on this board would even thik about not doing whatever it takes to remove a politician that tries to take all their guns, but then again that is the problem with gun owners to begin with isn't it.
Either the AW Ban goes or Bush does
voilsb
Member
Well, they'd probably start with NFA papers and 4473s, not CCW lists. And they'd probably also try to use NRA, GOA, JPFO, and SAF papers, if they could get ahold of them.Think about this: What if, in ten or twenty years, a squad of Pakistani soldiers wearing blue helmets surround your house and demand, on the basis of the county CCW list, that you surrender all your guns.
Mark Tyson
Member
No blue helmets are going to be coming for your guns. It will be your friendly local sheriff or special agent, probably with an American flag lapel pin.
Hkmp5sd
Member
That is very true. And if that occurs, it will most likely have been passed by a republican controlled house and senate. That means they get they're payback two years later.If Bush signs any AWB, it will be after the 2004 election. It will be too late to vote for anyone else.
Even Clinton has stated the Democrats lost control of congress in 1994 because of the AW ban. If the republicans do the same, they reap the same.
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