The colt .45

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Jim K, you have certainly added to the confusion, but you have also raised a couple of points that might be worth following up on.

First, it should be noted that the original 45 Colt had an even narrower rim than the narrow rim we are accustomed to today.

Secondly, the Schofield revolver, being a top break with an extractor star would want a wider rim whether it got it or not.

Thirdly, it's clear the army did develop the 45 Government which later went on the civilian market as the 45 Short Colt. Why?

Fourth, at some point the 45 S&W cartridge appeared on the civilian market and is generally considered to be the same as 45 Schofield and not the same as the 45 Government or 45 Short Colt.

And there are lots of stories around about the 45 Schofield not chambering properly in the SAA.

The 45 revolver had a wide rim (hard fact, I have a box of them in the original issue box.)

Why, unless they remembered the extractor issue? And there were a few SAAs still in active service during the 1909 New Service's heyday. And having a few 45 Revolver cartridges in hand, I tried it, and they don't chamber properly in the SAA or its clones.

I guess the bottom line here, is did the original Schofield cartridge have a wide rim? Every thing I've seen would seem to say it did.
 
For those of you who hand load the 45 Colt for revolvers larger than the SAA, and particularly swing out cylinder revolvers, Starline once ran off a batch of what they called "wide rim 45 Colt" brass, or what I might call '45 revolver" brass. I learned about this after they were sold out. This brass would be much better for the average swing out cylinder revolver. Go and bug Starline to run another batch!!!
 
Hi, unspellable,

It is really rather simple. There were only two cartridges used by the Army in that period - the .45 Colt (aka "long Colt") and the .45 Schofield (aka .45 Government, or .45 S&W, or .45 Army, .45 Short Colt, or even .45 Colt). The .45 Colt ("long Colt") cases are about 1.27" long; the shorter cases are about 1.10" long. After c. 1874, NO .45 "Long" Colt cartridges were made, purchased, or issued by the Army. The ONLY .45 revolver cartridges issued were made by Frankford Arsenal and they were the short case.

Part of the problem is that cartridge makers, especially Frankford Arsenal, did not hold tolerances very well in those days, so case length and rim diameters can vary rather widely, giving rise to the idea that there were different cartridges involved. For example, I have a Frankford Arsenal Benet primed .45 Government cartridge with a rim diameter of .516", and a Frankford Arsenal outside primed center-fire (F A 93) with a rim diameter of .522". Same cartridges, both made by the government factory, both issued for the same single action revolver, but a noticeable difference in dimensions.

That kind of discrepancy has led to the idea that there was a separate .45 S&W, made by or for S&W for the Schofield before it was adopted by the Army. There was not, at least as a commercial cartridge; S&W reportedly used cut off .45 Colt cases for its testing, but I have not been able to confirm that.

The Model 1909 cartridge is a separate item altogether. The Army, determined to replace the .38 revolver, and fed up with the seemingly endless search for an auto pistol, decided to buy a .45 revolver, which became the Model 1909. It is simply a Colt New Service in .45 Colt, with military markings. But in testing, the Army found out that the small rim of the .45 Colt cartridge jumped the extractor on the new revolver, making the gun inoperable until the jam was corrected (I tried it once, and it took ten minutes). So the Army developed its own cartridge, the Model 1909 cartridge, with a larger rim diameter (about .536") than the .45 Colt. That cartridge was never made commercially, only at Frankford Arsenal for issue to the Army. Colt never chambered any revolver for that cartridge or changed the New Service in any way. Due to the larger rim diameter, only three of that cartridge will fit into the SAA Colt.

So did the Army care? Nope. By 1909, the Model 1873 was long obsolete and no longer being issued. Most had been sold off. And the Army Model 1909 cartridge was never made or sold on the commercial market, so Colt didn't care, either.

I know this is far too long, but I think it is accurate and as good a summary as I can give.

Jim
 
Hi Jim,
The cartridge for the 1909 New Service was officially the “45 Revolver”. (At least that’s what it says on the army issue box.) Otherwise I agree with everything you say about it. As for the 1909 new Service revolver I suspect the front sight may have had a slightly different height than the civilian New Service in 45 Colt. Guess at this point it would take some measurements to resolve that question.
The Schofield revolver has a star extractor and is subject to the same problem of getting the rim under the extractor. I’ve never had a Schofield but it’s been my experience with top break revolvers that they are a bit more prone to the problem than swing out cylinder revolvers due to the difference in orientation when opening the cylinder.
As for the shorter versions of the 45 cartridge: It’s a hard fact that the cartridge the government was producing was known as the “45 Government” and also a hard fact that Remington later produced it for the civilian market as the “45 Short Colt”.
Was the 45 S&W different? Did it have a wide rim 0r not? I’d like to see some more on that point. If it did have a wider rim, it doesn’t automatically follow that the army used it. Was it something that went on the civilian market later? Was there a commercial loading labeled 45 S&W or 45 Schofield, regardless of dimensions or when produced? (Barring modern stuff from the discussion.)
As for production variances, they do exist. I’ve seen VERY early examples of the 45 Colt and the rim was almost non-existent.
One question I’ve never heard an answer for is why didn’t S&W simply make the Schofield long enough to take the 45 Colt like some modern Schofield replicas?
 
One question I’ve never heard an answer for is why didn’t S&W simply make the Schofield long enough to take the 45 Colt like some modern Schofield replicas?
Click to expand...

Perhaps for the same reason that Winchester didn't make a rifle chambered for .45 Colt. Colt held the patent and wouldn't allow it.
 
Hi, JRH,

I would think they didn't want to make new forging dies and revamp their entire production line for a relatively small sale of less than 9,000 guns.

Hi, Unspellable,

The official and complete name for the 1909 cartridge was "Caliber .45 Revolver Ball Cartridge, Model of 1909" and that is what is on the boxes I have seen.

The Model 1909 has the same front sight height as the .45 Colt New Service because it is a .45 Colt New Service.* The Model 1909 cartridge has the same case length and ballistics as the .45 Colt; the only difference is the rim diameter. (Don't confuse the Model 1909 cartridge with the .45 Schofield (by whatever name).)

As far as I can determine, the first "official" nomenclature for the .45 Schofield was Cartridge, Cal. .45 Revolver, Ball (S&W Schofield Length). Later, when it was the only revolver cartridge being issued, the parenthetical phrase was dropped and it became just the Cartridge, Cal. 45 Revolver, Ball, and that is what the GI boxes were marked. The reloadable outside primed case was given the designation Model 1882, but IIRC the boxes were not marked that.

The .45 Army, .45 Army Revolver, .45 Gov't, .45 Gov't Revolver, .45 S&W, .45 Schofield, were all the same cartridge; any differences were due to variations in manufacture, not to different cartridges. Yes, some REM-UMC cases were headstamped ".45 COLT". UMC cases were stamped ".45 S&W", and Peters cases were stamped ".45 C GOVT". Frankford Arsenal cases were stamped "F", "RF" or "LF" and the month and year. The "RF" meant it was a reloadable (Model 1882) case; when the "R" was confused with the .45-70 marking for rifle ammunition, the reloading indication was changed to "L". Benet primed cases had no headstamp.

*Yes, I measured.

Jim
 
They're both Colt 45's however the SAA is what immediately comes to mind when someone mentions a Colt 45.
 
My 1909 cartridges have the bullet weight and velocity on the box and they are downloaded from the 45 Colt, more in the 45 Schofield range. I'd go drag them out for a second look but as it happens I'm on the road in another state at the moment.
 
Correct, and my error. The boxes show a velocity of 725 fps +/- 25 fps, so anywhere from 700 to 750 fps, considerably under the .45 Colt ballistics and, as you say, in the .45 Gov't range.


I have not wanted to get into experimental cartridges as there is plenty of confusion with the formally adopted ones. There were several experimental rounds, as Frankford played with rim diameter, trying to find a size that would work in both the New Service and the SAA. But the production Model 1909 cartridge will fit in the SAA only if every other chamber is skipped.

There was a Model 1906 with a full jacket bullet (the Hague convention banned expanding bullets in 1899), and S&W considered producing a revolver for that round to the extent that they had UMC make 6000 rounds for development work. In the event, the Model 1906 round was not adopted and the Model 1909 cartridge was adopted instead.

Jim
 
Jim K
I have always regarded the 45 Government & the 45 Short Colt as army issue and civilian versions of the same cartridge,

I have always regarded the 45 Schofield and the 45 S&W to be the same cartridge.

I’m still chewing on the idea of the first two being the same as the second two.

Went web surfing. (Too much time on my hands stuck in this hotel room.) And I found mention of the 45 Government having a wider rim than the 45 Colt but not so wide as the 1909. Sort of obvious it couldn’t be that wide.

I found a picture of a Peters cartridge head stamped 45 Gov which would seem to indicate there was a civilian cartridge labeled as 45 Government. I have information to the effect that Remington marketed a version of the 45 Government labeled as 45 Short Colt. Question; when did Remington take over Peters?

Here’s where it gets screwy. I found a lengthy discussion thread on modifying a Ruger Blackhawk to take the 45 Schofield involving reducing the ratchet diameter to make room for the wider rim? This is really screwy. Assume for sake of argument the Schoefield had a wide rim. Why butcher a Blackhawk? Plenty of 45 Colt brass around. When I pick up modern Schofield brass at a gun show it doesn’t have a wide rim. Yet, if they were going to that much trouble they had wide rimmed something. Unfortunately they just called it 45 Schofield and gave no further information. If they had a collection of some 110 year old brass it wouldn’t make much since to use it.

BTW: Never tried dropping a 1909 in a Blackhawk, only my New Service and my Italian SAA clone. And it does make since that S&W would start out using trimmed 45 Colt brass in the back room, whether the final cartridge had a wide rime or not.

I have a rifle chambered for 360-400. Trying to sort that one out is worse than the 45s above. There are five different versions, no two of which are intechangable.
 
I noted in #56 that Peters used the ".45 GOVT" headstamp. I know of no headstamp or box reading ".45 Short Colt" or any version of that, though I have little doubt the cartridge was informally called that, especially since it would fit the Colt SAA.

The four cartridges you mention are really all the same and all of them should fit the SAA.

I agree with you in not understanding about altering the Ruger. Any gun that takes the .45 Colt should also take the .45 Schofield or whatever; I think someone was confused. (But that is surely impossible, isn't it? ;) )

Note: All the information I have written concerns the situation as prior to roughly 1909. Today, some cartridge and ammunition makers have turned out cartridges for the SASS and CAS sports and for modern guns, and those were often given, or called, names other than the ones by which they were originally known, or differ from cartridges originally called by the same name.

Oh, BTW. Remington was purchased by Union Metallic Cartridge Corp. (not the reverse as is often written) in 1912. In 1933, DuPont purchased a controlling interest in the combined company. Remington bought both Peters and the Parker shotgun company in 1934.

Jim
 
Let me butt in a bit.

In 1873 the Army adopted the Colt SAA in the black powder cartridge named and called the "45 Colt" This had a 250 gr. bullet in a case that was 1.290" long and a good enough rim for the SAA. It got about 900-1000 fps from the 7 1/2" barrel guns the Army used. It was a lucrative military contract for Colt which had an established history with the U.S. military.

Now in the same time frame Smith and Wesson had rich military contracts with Russia, Japan, Turkey and a good many contracts in the U.S. but none like what Colt had with the U.S. Army. Most of it's contracts were for variations of the Model 3 which were popular in 44 Russian caliber and 44 American.

In 1870 a cavalry coronal by the name of Schofield contacted S&W and offered to upgrade the #3 so it could win a military contract. S&W made him a distributor for their guns and he went to work. The result a few years later was the S&W Schofield model of the #3.

In military trials the Schofield reloaded faster and was easier to reload on horseback than the Colt SAA. The Army liked it but they wanted them to chamber the gun in the 45 Colt cartridge. They had guns in that caliber and wanted to keep them. According to Roy Jinks in his History of S&W, D. B. Wesson told the Army that it was impossible to chamber the guns in 45 Colt because the ejector star could not catch the small rim of the 45 Colt cartridge. But he said they have their own round which would work. But...

Two things were happening here, one was that S&W did not lengthen the size of the frame or cylinder from the size for the 44 Russian. To accommodate the length of the 45 Colt they would of had to do both. The other was the strength of the top break design S&W had. It would work with the 44 Russian and American rounds but with the much more powerful 45 Colt? Likely not as the 45 Schofield round that S&W came up with was more akin to the 44 Russian in power than the 45 Colt.

But anyway the Army ordered a few thousand of the S&W Schofield with it's long barrel and short round. The exact dimensions of the "larger rim" of the 45 S&W round are a little fuzzy. Maybe at that point in time a bit larger.

The Colt SAA could be loaded with either round. But the Schofield only the short round. Here is the origin of the 45 Long Colt moniker and the 45 Short. This difference caused any number of problems for the military when the wrong round ended up in the wrong place. By 1880 the military was selling the Schofields as surplus.

Both round were produced on the commercial market and both sold well for awhile. But the 45 Colt (Long Colt) stuck around while the Schofield fell into obscurity till Cowboy action shooting revived it.

tipoc
 
Re the S&Wield accommodating the 45 Colt. The S&W frame was long enough for the 45 Colt. The rub is that if you lengthen the cylinder enough to accommodate the 45 Colt in the then existing frame, you have to give up the gas ring, This makes the revolver overly susceptible to tying up due to powder fouling. Modern replicas make due without the gas ring on the grounds they will be burning smokeless.
 
The S&W frame was long enough for the 45 Colt. The rub is that if you lengthen the cylinder enough to accommodate the 45 Colt in the then existing frame, you have to give up the gas ring, This makes the revolver overly susceptible to tying up due to powder fouling.
Click to expand...

Possible, also another way of saying it wasn't long enough. But we do know that the story that the case rim being too small on the 45 Colt made it impossible for S&W to use the 45 Colt round in the #3 and so S&W came up with the 45 Schofield (Short Colt) was not the actual reason for the change.

The Army wanted a round with the same power as the 45 Colt. S&W gave them a round that was shorter and less powerful. The Army accepted it because reloading the gun was so much faster and this could offset the loss of power. They did not produce a round with the same power levels as the 45 Colt but with a slightly wider rim. This could have been done easily. Why not widen the rim of the 45 Colt? Which is something that was done a few decades later. S&W never placed a round close to the power of the Colt round in a top break design. With the metals of the time and the design of the #3 I don't believe they could do it. They were also disinclined to put the name "Colt" on the sides of their barrels.

The Enfield and Webley top break designs could chamber the 45 Colt and 45acp. But this was some years later. The metal in the Webleys and their design was stronger as well. By that time S&W had the Hand Ejectors and top breaks were passe for S&W.

tipoc
 
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I think a short lesson is needed on the Schofield revolver. The Army was fully committed to the Model 1873 (Colt SAA) revolver. They wanted to change over to cartridge revolvers quickly, but they did not adopt the Schofield because they much wanted or needed it. They adopted it because of the influence of Col. John Schofield, former general and Secretary of War and future commandant of the USMA. Any real or perceived advantages of the S&W design were of secondary consideration.

But S&W apparently recognized the political reality behind the adoption and knew their revolver would be dumped as soon as Schofield's influence waned, so they had no desire to invest a lot of money or time in guns for the Army contract. Total Schofield production was some 8600 guns; S&W had sold almost that many guns to Turkey and well over ten times that many to Russia. They seemed to have considered the U.S. contract nice to have but not worth too much work or much disruption of regular production.

Jim
 
In 1967 I was an armorer at Ft Benning. I had just had 3 stripes removed at OCS and was working as a spare armorer form the pool assigned to the matches on main base. I was fortunate to see some of the finest shooters in the Army. Over at the pistol ranges there was an old, and I mean ancient, SFC with a black flapover holster on his left hip set for cross draw. He had a bet on with a first Lt who had sort of coerced the range masters assistance. With range shut down to all others the range master lobbed a dummy, heavy, pineapple cast iron, grenade about 50' down range. First shot from a holster draw hit it before it stopped rolling. Next five kept it moving but at least twice I think he didn't hit it but kicked it with range gravel. Turning he told the Lt. "45 auto is a hell of a weapon, but not against a 45 long colt. Now about that beer...". I have known since that day the difference between a 45acp/auto and a 45 long colt

blindhari
 
Let's look again at the Schofield and draw on Supica, Jinks, and Charley Pate.

In 1870 the U.S. Army purchased 1000 S&W "American" version of the #3 revolvers chambered in 44 American. These saw some testing and use. But in 1873 the Army adopted the Colt M1873 preferring it's greater strength and simplicity over the #3. That the #3 was faster to reload was considered secondary to the strength of the Colt and it's round. In 1874 they took possession of 8,000 of the Colt's chambered in 45 Colt.

The influential Col. Schofield began work on improving the #3 in 1871. The improved Schofield design was tested by the Army and approved for purchase. The Army requested it be chambered in 45 Colt but S&W demurred and offered it in a shorter 45 caliber round (The 45 Schofield, but the Army never called it that).

Jinks and Supica maintain that the frame and cylinder of the Schofield #3 were too short for the longer Colt round. This is true. It would have taken a major disruption of production of the lucrative model #3 to rework the Schofiled for the longer round.

In 1875 the Army ordered 3,000 of the Schofields. Two years later an additional 5,000 were ordered and received by the Army in 1877.

By the end of 1877 the Army had 8,000 Schofields and 15,000 Colt's. Only a few Schofields were made for the civilian market. The majority made were for the U.S. Army.

The Schofield was issued to the 4th, 9th and 10th cavalry (the latter the famous Buffalo Soldiers). Others were issued to state militias. The Schofields saw military service for a few decades in odd ways and places.

Their were problems with the cartridge lengths. This led the military toi begin the Long Colt and Short Colt common use designations. But the confusions was likely not the dominant factor in the Schofields demise as a military handgun.

In 1878, Charles Pate maintains, the U.S. Army tried to order more of the Schofields. S&W said no.

From Supica pg. 99:

It should be noted that 1878 was the year that S&W introduced it's New Model Number Three, replacing the American, Russian, and Schofield, and perhaps the factory wanted to focus it's large frame single action revolver production on it's new and improved model.
Click to expand...

It's also worth noting that Col. Schofield received a royalty on his design and not on any improved models.

So in the beginning of 1878 more than half the guns chambered in a 45 caliber cartridge that the rmy had were Schofields. Not exactly an after thought.

The Colt SAA and the remaining Schofields soldiered on till they were replaced in 1892 by double action revolvers, note faster on the reload and on the shooting, in 38 Long Colt.

tipoc
 
Jim K said:
I think a short lesson is needed on the Schofield revolver. The Army was fully committed to the Model 1873 (Colt SAA) revolver. They wanted to change over to cartridge revolvers quickly, but they did not adopt the Schofield because they much wanted or needed it. They adopted it because of the influence of Col. John Schofield, former general and Secretary of War and future commandant of the USMA. Any real or perceived advantages of the S&W design were of secondary consideration.

But S&W apparently recognized the political reality behind the adoption and knew their revolver would be dumped as soon as Schofield's influence waned, so they had no desire to invest a lot of money or time in guns for the Army contract. Total Schofield production was some 8600 guns; S&W had sold almost that many guns to Turkey and well over ten times that many to Russia. They seemed to have considered the U.S. contract nice to have but not worth too much work or much disruption of regular production.

Jim
Click to expand...
Are there any sources to confirm that it was General and Former Acting Sec of War John McAllister Schofield who helped in the development and not Major George W. Schofield whose name is on the patent?

John M. Schofield was promoted to the permanent rank of Brigadier General on November 30, 1864 (brevet Major General), and that was his permanent rank, not Colonel.

Major George Wheeler Schofield was his brother so there is still a reason for his influence with the Army. George Schofield was a brevet Brigadier General of Volunteers during the war and reverted to his permanent regular army rank when the war ended.

More info
 
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According to Roy Jinks in his "History of Smith and Wesson" it was Major George W. Schofield, a member of the 10th calvary. His brother was General John M. Schofield. It was the latter who was the president of the Small Arms Board in the spring of 1870.

It was allegedly General John who told his brother Major George about the #3 revolver. Major Schofield took the gun and ran on the improvements. S&W thought highly of the possibilities involved.

They wrote to Major George Schofield On Oct. 18, 1870:

"...We are disposed to give you every possible advantage as we wish to have you use your efforts to introduce the new pistol among the class you name."

They offered Major George Schofield a S&W dealership to press the #3 with the Army. He did that and the result was the Schofield being adopted. Likely he used his brothers influence. Such was normal practice then and now.

tipoc
 
Yes, some REM-UMC cases were headstamped ".45 COLT".
Click to expand...
If that's true, then at least two ammunition companies were making short cartridges headstamped .45 COLT.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/45_short_colt.htm

45sc2.jpg
45sc3.jpg
I know of no headstamp or box reading ".45 Short Colt" or any version of that, though I have little doubt the cartridge was informally called that, especially since it would fit the Colt SAA.
Click to expand...
Now that it has been established beyond a shadow of a doubt that there were at one time, two different cartridges, both headstamped .45 COLT, differing in length, it becomes absolutely clear why people started referring to one of them as long and the other as short.

And it makes a lot more sense than trying to claim that people started calling the .45 Colt the .45 Long Colt to distinguish it from the .45 Schofield. The designation ".45 Schofield" is already plenty different enough from ".45 Colt" to avoid confusion.

So was it correct to ask for .45 Long Colt if you didn't want the short ones? I'm guessing it would be hard to explain what you wanted without using the words "short" or "long" in your description! :D
 
"45 Colt" This had a 250 gr. bullet in a case that was 1.290" long and a good enough rim for the SAA. It got about 900-1000 fps from the 7 1/2" barrel guns the Army used
Click to expand...

They didn't do it for long. The Army cut the load soon after adoption. Some say to reduce recoil, some say because cylinders were failing proof test. This in the long case before they started issuing .45 Gov't for common use in Colt and S&W.

Related question; Will a Colt really accept true .45 S&W? Some sources say the .45 Gov't made at Frankford Arsenal had a smaller rim than the original S&W cartridge.


S&W never placed a round close to the power of the Colt round in a top break design.
Click to expand...

The No 3 New Model and First Model Double Action were offered in the Frontier model with 1 9/16" cylinder for .44 WCF (and in very small numbers .38 WCF)
They did not sell very well, as witness a good number of .44 Russians with the long cylinder, built to use up the parts on hand, but they did think the top breaks would hold the hotter rounds.
 
Let's make it simple...cuz it is, or rather it was.

In 1873 the Army adopted the Colt SAA in 45 Colt round. We all agree on this.

With a bit of change that round is still with us and is a common caliber still today. If we all don't agree on this we should cuz it's true.

A few years later the Army also adopted the S&W Schofield adapted #3 but in the caliber named 45 Schofield.

By the end of 1877 the Army had 8,000 Schofields and 15,000 Colt's.We all agree on this. We know it to be true.

Now the military had given themselves a problem. The 45 Colt round would not fit in the Schofield and the 45 Schofield might fit in some Colts and maybe could function but not always reliably. We all agree on this.

Now the military came up with a solution. Beginning in the late 1870s or early 1880s they manufactured their own ammo. The "45 Colt Government" round, which was known as the 45 Short Colt. Which was intended to fit and function in both weapons. That round stuck around from the late 1870s to about the 1930s. If we don't all agree we should cuz it's true.

Now not agreed on is that the Schofield was also called, a short Colt, by many who did not know the technical difference. So in common parlance confusion was created and existed and grew. Especially as the 45 Colt Government did not last as long as the Schofield round. The latter remained in continuous production. It also created confusion, that has lasted to this day, to have more than one round used by the government called 45 Colt.

Now we've seen the "leverguns" discussion here on the topic...

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/45_short_colt.htm

and folks can go to page 319 (in the 10th edition) of Barnes "Cartridges of the World" under the listing 45 Colt/45 Colt Government in the "Obsolete Handgun cartridges" of the book. You'll find the Schofield in the "Current" section of the book.

Yes there was a 45 Long Colt and a 45 Short Colt.

Yes the original 45 Colt round (Long Colt) was loaded down from it's original black powder specs by the military. Exactly why is not known. Folks can make intelligent guesses but that's different from knowing.

Yep the 45 Short (45 Colt Government) was loaded to about the same power as the Schofield which was about the same power level as the down loaded 45 Colt (Long Colt), according to Barnes.

Yes S&W did not want to make a gun that could chamber the 45 Colt (Long Colt) round. It would of meant substantial changes in the production lines and to the guns. There may have been other reasons as well and likely were.

Yes S&W never made a top break revolver that was strong enough to handle the power of the original loading of the 45 Colt. Their guns could handle the 44 Russian and American, the 45 Schofield and the 45 Short Colt. They never made one strong enough or big enough to handle the 45 Long Colt.

No, when the Army adopted the Schofield it was not simply to please a General who was the brother of the designer of the gun. They wanted the gun.

tipoc
 
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My rule:
The 1911 shoots the .45 ACP
The SAA shoots the .45 Colt
Therefore, calling a 1911 a colt .45, is while somewhat accurate, confusing. For that reason, I would say the SAA
but at the same time its both lol
 
found some good info on the saa, the schofield and the 1909 colt da revolver.

go to "hathitrust.org". search the SUBJECT "firearms. then, refine your search for the publication dates of 1917 and 1874. you will find an army ordinance publication on the above subjects.

lots of interesting info there. just thought i'd "muddy up the waters" a bit.

murf
 
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