rainbowbob
Member
I agree on that as a general principle, certainly. And in this particular case, it probably would have allowed the driver to avoid the altercation. Probably - but not necessarily.
The 'critical mass' attack
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I agree on that as a general principle, certainly. And in this particular case, it probably would have allowed the driver to avoid the altercation. Probably - but not necessarily.
Yes it is tough to plan for an ambush like this, how do you defend your self with out being the crazed car driver. Look at the media they don't want to come out and tell you this is a very angry and dangerous mob. If these guys were on Harleys can you imagine how scared people would be the army would be brought in. The fact is these "bikers" don't pay road taxes and are breaking the law. It may be there right to be on the road but it won't be for long if they keep this up. Somone needs to start a class action lawsuit against the city for letting this happen. They have knowingly broken the laws for years with no repercussion of course they think there above the law, all they have to do is lie about what happened and there off. The whole mob should be jailed.
Boomer
Member
Cosmoline, re your quote about wisdom: if you were in a similar situation, is there a point at which you might decide you needed to do more than wait for them to leave? If so, what is that point, and what would you do?
Regarding post #38.....
Eric, if you ever have the misfortune to be involved in one of these situations and actually injure somebody - I'd give you better than even odds that you have written yourself a guaranteed conviction with lots of time as Bubba's girlfriend while you ponder the wisdom of your internet words.
Eric, if you ever have the misfortune to be involved in one of these situations and actually injure somebody - I'd give you better than even odds that you have written yourself a guaranteed conviction with lots of time as Bubba's girlfriend while you ponder the wisdom of your internet words.
Cosmoline
Member
I would wait until I was presented with imminent and unlawful deadly peril. Prior to that I would do all possible to avoid the confrontation.
Do you mean to say that you would be late for a dinner reservation (that you were running late for anyway) just to let an "angry mob of anarchists" travel past while "Illegally" ridin' them hippy bicylces that they ain't payin' no road tax for any way? [Sarcasm off now] do some of you "Kill 'em all" folks have any idea how crazy you sound? Are you gonna go shoot the train that's holdin' you up also? How about then wackos that have the audacity to have a funeral procession on the same road you want to drive on? Puhlease....... take a breath of air and count to ten....
JohnMcD348
Member
I wonder what the truth is in this event. Was it the cyclist who instigated this by purposefully attacking the vehicle while it was sitting still or was it the driver of the car who didn't want to wait for them to pass on and tried to get into and beyond the the group?
If it were me, unless I had a true emergency(life or limb) and was being blocked in by the group, I'd have let them pass. If however they were attacking my vehicle then they would have had to come face to face with 9000lbs of Dodge Ram Hemi power and I would not have stopped until I was well beyond them and I'd have had 911 on my speaker phone the entire time giving them my whereabouts so that an officer could have met up with me. I've thought about situations like this before after nearly coming into a riotous moment and I would never let a mob drag me from a vehicle. They would be run over. No doubts, no hessitations. If it were just me in the vehicle, perhaps I would hessitate for a moment but if my wife or child were in the car, no doubts, no bad feelings afterward, no sleep lost in the end.
Vehicles kill more people every year than a firearm so why can it not be looked at in this case as a weapon of self defense.
If it were me, unless I had a true emergency(life or limb) and was being blocked in by the group, I'd have let them pass. If however they were attacking my vehicle then they would have had to come face to face with 9000lbs of Dodge Ram Hemi power and I would not have stopped until I was well beyond them and I'd have had 911 on my speaker phone the entire time giving them my whereabouts so that an officer could have met up with me. I've thought about situations like this before after nearly coming into a riotous moment and I would never let a mob drag me from a vehicle. They would be run over. No doubts, no hessitations. If it were just me in the vehicle, perhaps I would hessitate for a moment but if my wife or child were in the car, no doubts, no bad feelings afterward, no sleep lost in the end.
Vehicles kill more people every year than a firearm so why can it not be looked at in this case as a weapon of self defense.
XLMiguel
Member
I drive (mostly) and I bike (sometimes). I also belive in the Law of Gross Tonnage.
We have our share of Militant Moron Cyclists here in Santa Fe. Mostly, I give 'em room, but some really push the limit.
Recently, I had some idjit charge me from across the street as I was doing a proper 'right-turn-on-red'. He took great umbarage that I would block ''his' crosswalk/right-of-way, nevermind that I had cleared the intersection well before he was wiwthin 20 m. of me, he followed me shrieking profanities. I pulled over and hopped out prepared to do a full body block on his skinny @$$ (I'm 6'3. 250#), I had an easy 80-90# on him & his bike. His attitude suddenly improved as I asked him what his problem was - he suddenly didn't really have one and I returned some of his vitrolic and suggested he grow up before I turned his bicycle into a suppository. I had my cell phone inhand and offered to call the cops. He was gone - go figure.
Courtesy is a two way street.
We have our share of Militant Moron Cyclists here in Santa Fe. Mostly, I give 'em room, but some really push the limit.
Recently, I had some idjit charge me from across the street as I was doing a proper 'right-turn-on-red'. He took great umbarage that I would block ''his' crosswalk/right-of-way, nevermind that I had cleared the intersection well before he was wiwthin 20 m. of me, he followed me shrieking profanities. I pulled over and hopped out prepared to do a full body block on his skinny @$$ (I'm 6'3. 250#), I had an easy 80-90# on him & his bike. His attitude suddenly improved as I asked him what his problem was - he suddenly didn't really have one and I returned some of his vitrolic and suggested he grow up before I turned his bicycle into a suppository. I had my cell phone inhand and offered to call the cops. He was gone - go figure.
Courtesy is a two way street.
eric.cartman
Member
JohnMcD348, finally someone of sound mind. Totally agreed. Alone, I would have more restraint. My family in the car with me? As a husband and father, my first and only obligation on this world is assure safety and security to my loved ones.
The rest of you "prosecutor will show printouts of my posts to the jury" people. Get a grip. Watched too many conspiracy theory movies lately?
I happen to know something about computers, internet, etc. especially about how insecure the medium is. Go ahead, PROVE that the fictional eric.cartman is ME. Prove that someone didn't steal my password by packet sniffing on my, ops, unsecured wireless connection and didn't post for me. Prove that IP address spoofing didn't take place, so that someone could FAKE it came from my internet location. Prove that I used this account in the last 30 days. Prove the same person wrote this post and the one #38.
Can you do that?
EDIT TO ADD: Ever wonder why internet and identity theft kinna exploded at the same time?
The rest of you "prosecutor will show printouts of my posts to the jury" people. Get a grip. Watched too many conspiracy theory movies lately?
I happen to know something about computers, internet, etc. especially about how insecure the medium is. Go ahead, PROVE that the fictional eric.cartman is ME. Prove that someone didn't steal my password by packet sniffing on my, ops, unsecured wireless connection and didn't post for me. Prove that IP address spoofing didn't take place, so that someone could FAKE it came from my internet location. Prove that I used this account in the last 30 days. Prove the same person wrote this post and the one #38.
Can you do that?
EDIT TO ADD: Ever wonder why internet and identity theft kinna exploded at the same time?
Cesiumsponge
Member
I hate driving in Seattle for two reasons:
One-way streets
bicyclists that think they are Lance Armstrong.
I have no problem with normal people cycling to work or for enjoyment. I don't have problems with bicyclists at all as I do a bit of it myself. The problem are the spandex wannabes that break all the road rules thinking they are Lance Armstrong. They fly out of the bike trails across traffic with complete disregard. They apply road rules, then use pedestrian rules such as crosswalks when convenient so you can never tell what set of rules they're adhering to. None of them use hand signals. Their ego is higher than the air pressure in their tires.
Seriously, motorcyclists understand the concept of physics (well not so much anymore since it seems like motorcycles on the road have grown 500% after the gas price hike and most of the new guys are green and have no endorsement or idea how the rules work either) but the specific cycle weenies here follow no laws. Hell, even car drivers dodge SUVs and truck drivers, even the truck driver is at fault because physics always wins.
An example just a few months ago, a cyclist runs a dead red light at an intersection so I have to emergency brake while doing a legal turn, then gives me the finger and glares as he peddles peddles peddles peddles by doing a crawling 15mph in a 35mph. I constantly hear from local cyclists how these guys give normal cyclists a bad name.
As someone that is libertarian, I have a hard time fighting for government to come in and issue permits or some sort of regulation on these bicyclists that violate all road rules, but something needs to be done with all these idiots. Groups like Critical Mass are the Al Sharptons of bicyclists.
Some of these Critical Mass guys are bigtime environmentalists up here too to boot, drinking their Starbucks and ignoring the millions of acres of pristine South American rainforest being cut down and turned into coffee bean plantations. Won't someone think of the parrots and monkeys?
Also if you look up the wiki page on Critical Mass, about 80% of it deals with confrontations in the past, and methodologies they pass around on flyers on plugging up traffic.
One-way streets
bicyclists that think they are Lance Armstrong.
I have no problem with normal people cycling to work or for enjoyment. I don't have problems with bicyclists at all as I do a bit of it myself. The problem are the spandex wannabes that break all the road rules thinking they are Lance Armstrong. They fly out of the bike trails across traffic with complete disregard. They apply road rules, then use pedestrian rules such as crosswalks when convenient so you can never tell what set of rules they're adhering to. None of them use hand signals. Their ego is higher than the air pressure in their tires.
Seriously, motorcyclists understand the concept of physics (well not so much anymore since it seems like motorcycles on the road have grown 500% after the gas price hike and most of the new guys are green and have no endorsement or idea how the rules work either) but the specific cycle weenies here follow no laws. Hell, even car drivers dodge SUVs and truck drivers, even the truck driver is at fault because physics always wins.
An example just a few months ago, a cyclist runs a dead red light at an intersection so I have to emergency brake while doing a legal turn, then gives me the finger and glares as he peddles peddles peddles peddles by doing a crawling 15mph in a 35mph. I constantly hear from local cyclists how these guys give normal cyclists a bad name.
As someone that is libertarian, I have a hard time fighting for government to come in and issue permits or some sort of regulation on these bicyclists that violate all road rules, but something needs to be done with all these idiots. Groups like Critical Mass are the Al Sharptons of bicyclists.
Some of these Critical Mass guys are bigtime environmentalists up here too to boot, drinking their Starbucks and ignoring the millions of acres of pristine South American rainforest being cut down and turned into coffee bean plantations. Won't someone think of the parrots and monkeys?
Also if you look up the wiki page on Critical Mass, about 80% of it deals with confrontations in the past, and methodologies they pass around on flyers on plugging up traffic.
I suppose I'm just less courageous than you and less inclined to tempt fate and test your convictions (pun intended) by making such imprudent internet postings.
I personally don't see the potential gain in it merely for the sake of a well-thumped chest.
Assuming it was even you who posted them in the first place, of course.
How bout I just ask you - did you post #59 and #38? If you did, then the whole angle about IP spoofing, stolen passwords and whatnot is just a smoke screen. Are you saying that on this forum you are willing to stick your neck out and say - hey here's what I would do, and then back in the real world deny you said it if push came to shove? If you say it, stand behind it.
As for the cyclists, I've never heard of that group, but if they ever crossed paths with a good old fashioned motorcycle gang, well that would make a good pay-per-view special!
XavierBreath
Member
I'm closing this thread. Feel free to restart it and try again.
The conflicts between cyclists riding in mass to advocate whatever and motorists trying to get to where they want to go is a worthy subject. The conflict can happen to almost any of us, some as motorists, others as cyclists. We can only expect the issues to become more challenging as more and more people become cyclists. The facts of this incident are known to only a few individuals, and like most stories, it is being reported in the media with the usual sensationalism and possibly quite a bit of distortion.
The thing to do if you find yourself delayed by a bunch of people on bicycles is to stop, place your car in park, and wait. Listen to the radio. Make a couple of phone calls. But park it and wait. There have been no incidents of CM riders assaulting parked cars. They will not be there forever. Fighting back a mob with a small can of spice is a lost cause. Drawing a firearm is worse. It is far better to be delayed for ten, twenty, or even thirty minutes than to kill somebody. The repercussions of killing somebody, whether by accident or intent are long lasting and permanent. Giving back a life you regret taking because you were pissed off at being delayed, because you were angry because someone bumped your bike, or because you were careless is an impossibility. You live with it.
This forum is about the realistic resolution of conflict, and bringing conflict to a successful conclusion. The first step towards that is avoidance of conflict. The second is de-escalation, not pulling out your Glock, your pepper spray or reving the engine in your Hummer. Killing or injuring people is not an appropriate response to being delayed on the way to your destination. I don't care whether you think they are "commie-bike-riding-cut-down-on-polution-stinking-hippies" or not. They are people. Smacking someone in the back of the head with a U-lock when they get out of their vehicle to help someone they have injured is not an appropriate response either. If that person is exiting the vehicle, the threat is gone, and it's time to assist the injured.
Bloodlust is not tolerated in this forum. Read this sticky.
If this subject is restarted, and it should be as it is a pertinent one, keep the thread realistic, within the guidelines of the forum, and keep the bloodlust, the name calling, and the chest thumping out of it.
The conflicts between cyclists riding in mass to advocate whatever and motorists trying to get to where they want to go is a worthy subject. The conflict can happen to almost any of us, some as motorists, others as cyclists. We can only expect the issues to become more challenging as more and more people become cyclists. The facts of this incident are known to only a few individuals, and like most stories, it is being reported in the media with the usual sensationalism and possibly quite a bit of distortion.
The thing to do if you find yourself delayed by a bunch of people on bicycles is to stop, place your car in park, and wait. Listen to the radio. Make a couple of phone calls. But park it and wait. There have been no incidents of CM riders assaulting parked cars. They will not be there forever. Fighting back a mob with a small can of spice is a lost cause. Drawing a firearm is worse. It is far better to be delayed for ten, twenty, or even thirty minutes than to kill somebody. The repercussions of killing somebody, whether by accident or intent are long lasting and permanent. Giving back a life you regret taking because you were pissed off at being delayed, because you were angry because someone bumped your bike, or because you were careless is an impossibility. You live with it.
This forum is about the realistic resolution of conflict, and bringing conflict to a successful conclusion. The first step towards that is avoidance of conflict. The second is de-escalation, not pulling out your Glock, your pepper spray or reving the engine in your Hummer. Killing or injuring people is not an appropriate response to being delayed on the way to your destination. I don't care whether you think they are "commie-bike-riding-cut-down-on-polution-stinking-hippies" or not. They are people. Smacking someone in the back of the head with a U-lock when they get out of their vehicle to help someone they have injured is not an appropriate response either. If that person is exiting the vehicle, the threat is gone, and it's time to assist the injured.
Bloodlust is not tolerated in this forum. Read this sticky.
If this subject is restarted, and it should be as it is a pertinent one, keep the thread realistic, within the guidelines of the forum, and keep the bloodlust, the name calling, and the chest thumping out of it.
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