Quantcast

The draw

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by Palladan44, Nov 28, 2020.

  1. Palladan44

    Palladan44 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2020
    Messages:
    452
    Ive trained for many years on holster draws.
    Theyre very important to be able to do safely, quickly, and from compromised positions.

    Under normal, empty handed circumstances i use my left hand to lift clothing, allowing for cleaner access to the firearm.

    I realize the importance and often a deadly encounter, the attack could often require the need to use the opposite hand to deflect or block a stab, a muzzle of a firearm, blunt object, rock, glass bottle, pool stick, a wrench, a tire iron, screwdriver, baseball bat, etc. Requiring a one handed holster draw, while your opposite hand plays defense. Data on civilian based self defense shootings (not well published) is pointing towards these shootings happen at closer range than we might think. (2 or 3 or 4 yds.)
    (This is just my opinion formulated by a lot of factors)

    In a recent training class, with a new instructor, they are teaching only One-handed holster draws. What are your thoughts? I personally am now training for both. Thoughts?
     
    scaatylobo and GBExpat like this.
  2. waterhouse

    waterhouse Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2005
    Messages:
    5,489
    Location:
    Round Rock, TX
    I train for both, with the majority of the training going to one handed draw practice.
     
    scaatylobo, GBExpat and FL-NC like this.
  3. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2016
    Messages:
    6,411
    Location:
    Fl panhandle
    1 handed is the way to go, because it is the more difficult. As you stated, you may need that other hand for something else, or it may be injured. If you are fortunate enough to have that second hand available at the time when it really matters, that's just a bonus. Don't neglect drills at "grappling distance" that may require contact shooting an adversary. They are complex and must be executed with safety in mind. I recommend professional training for these complex but important scenarios. I use a 22 M&P pistol for these drills to prevent my target from being reduced to confetti.
     
  4. Craig_VA
    • Contributing Member

    Craig_VA Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2007
    Messages:
    740
    Location:
    Arkansas
    My first two SD classes taught two-handed draw, and that is primarily what i have been practicing. I invested in a blue gun matching my EDC to be able to practice draw safely. Many mornings I run through a few minutes of blue gun draws before holstering my EDC. Recently I watch YouTube video on strong-side one-handed draw. Now I practice that method for at least half of my blue gun draw practice.
     
    GBExpat likes this.
  5. CDW4ME

    CDW4ME Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2009
    Messages:
    1,956
    Location:
    FL USA
    For me, AIWB is slightly quicker to draw than strong side IWB; that said, strong side IWB is more comfortable if seated for an extended time.
     
  6. GBExpat

    GBExpat Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2007
    Messages:
    6,408
    Location:
    Rural, far beyond the beltway, Northern Virginia,
    I have always defaulted to a 1-handed draw as my left hand (if it is available) is naturally reaching behind to pull my coat/jacket out of the way.
     
  7. Yarddog

    Yarddog Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2010
    Messages:
    554
    Location:
    FL.--There's a Gator in the bushes & She's callin
    If a threat is 2 yards, 6 feet . It's time to go H2H & get Nasty JMO ; )
    H/D
     
  8. Craig_VA
    • Contributing Member

    Craig_VA Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2007
    Messages:
    740
    Location:
    Arkansas
    But the question of 2-hand or 1-hand draw applies equally to AIWB and strong-side holstering.
    Notably, I have of late been seeing many more recommendations for AIWB over strong-side.
     
  9. Good Ol' Boy

    Good Ol' Boy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2016
    Messages:
    2,418
    Location:
    Mechanicsville, VA
    I used to practice both but the last year or so have switched to soley one handed.

    I shoot IDPA and so it really hasn't been a big deal. Most guys that run a vest, jacket or button up are using one hand to sweep anyway.

    I run my carry gear which consists of a t-shirt of some sort and have gotten very consistent with a one handed draw. I practice/train/shoot at home.

    I like the idea of having my off hand free and from my experience the chances of fouling up a draw either one or two handed are about the same.
     
  10. theotherwaldo

    theotherwaldo Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2008
    Messages:
    4,349
    Location:
    In the Wild Horse Desert of Texas
    In the few close-range self defense situations that I've found myself in, my left hand was busy blocking, grabbing or bleeding. If I'd needed it to access my handgun, I'd have been in a world of hurt... .
     
    Rexster likes this.
  11. Rexster

    Rexster Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2007
    Messages:
    3,593
    Location:
    SE Texas
    In “social” situations, having two hands available to draw is a luxury. A gunfight is a fight that just happens to involve a gun. I train with the idea that my “support” hand is going to be holding/contacting a steering wheel, door handle, dog leash, bag of groceries, flashlight, camera, umbrella, or some kind of stick, if not some part of an opponent’s body.

    Having said that, there is nothing wrong with training to use the support hand to clear clothing, to start the draw. Just be aware that one may have to “create distance,” to allow one the luxury of having two free hands.
     
    theotherwaldo likes this.
  12. Rexster

    Rexster Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2007
    Messages:
    3,593
    Location:
    SE Texas
    Also, train for the possibility that an opponent may well target one’s “strong” hand, or weapon hand. For over three decades, I prioritized gaining control of others’ “strong” arms and hands, as I made arrests. I would rather “smother the draw,” than deal with a weapon in an opponent’s hand(s).
     
  13. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2003
    Messages:
    16,599
    Location:
    DFW Area
    One handed draw. With the type of cover garment I used, I need two hands to reholster though.
     
    Howland937 and qwert65 like this.
  14. fastbolt

    fastbolt Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    2,980
    Location:
    Within the lightning
    Train and practice for your intended use and anticipated needs.

    As a younger firearms instructor it was startling to me how many folks who lawfully carried handguns didn't give much attention to their selection of holsters, as well as their ability to safely and properly use their holsters. Holstering and drawing from a holster are a couple of weapon handling manipulations that can be a lot more dangerous than many people may stop to consider.

    Some folks look at the holster as nothing more than a convenient way to carry (by wearing) a handgun from one point to another.

    A lot of public/private ranges won't allow people to use holsters or draw from them, so it can make it difficult for people to practice using them for drawing and holstering during live-fire.

    Classes and competition participation cost money and time.

    Then, there's the folks who don't seem to anticipate they may ever have to "fight" using their holstered weapons.

    For the folks who do engage in firearms training involving holster use, or are required to do so (for their jobs/careers), it can vary. Being able to draw as may be necessary under anticipated circumstances (dynamic, chaotic and stressful), both 1 and 2-handed, or using your offside hand, might be necessary skills to learn and practice.

    I remember when I was first working to be able to do a 1-sec draw/fire from both Duty and concealment holsters. I'd just returned from an outside LE class where the students were encouraged to maintain the ability to draw/fire from "real" concealment - meaning jackets and coats, not some lightweight "vest" - and the suggested goal was to remain able to do it and get solid A-zone hits out to 5-7ds in no more than 1.5sec. 2-handed shooting grips were required for the timed assessment drills, because it required getting that support hand clear of manipulating any cover clothing (lifting sweatshirts worn under jackets, while the strong hand swept the jacket), and supporting 2-handed stability and accuracy at speed. Sure, 1-handed close-range was easier and faster, but if you can do it the hard way, the easy way can become ... even easier. :)

    The former head range instructor, who was my mentor for many years, once told me that the "trick" to mastering a sub-1sec draw was ... to do it correctly for at least 10,000 repetitions. o_O He worked with me until I could hit that sub-1sec benchmark, at least sometimes, but that was just a static range "test". I did a lot more drawing on our hot LE range, though. Then again, standing there and waiting for the audible buzzer, fully expecting what you're going to do, is a far different thing than being out off the range and caught up in some real world situations. You can't know what you're going to be doing, including with your hands.

    When I was required to draw my duty weapon for real, in both uniform and plainclothes situations, I seldom remembered the draw, let alone what I'd had to do in order to complete it. There were times when it seemed that it simply "appeared" in my hand, or hands. Of course, that was the point of the training and practice, right?
     
    murf, RA40 and Rexster like this.
  15. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2003
    Messages:
    16,599
    Location:
    DFW Area
    The nice thing about holster work is that you don't need to practice it with a loaded gun. Anyone can get good if they are willing to put in the time, even if they can't afford ammo and can't get to the range.
     
    RA40, fastbolt, Rexster and 1 other person like this.
  16. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2004
    Messages:
    7,615
    Location:
    Back on Puget Sound
    I'm not going to argue that if you're simply speaking of practicing your draw stroke with no threat close by or present.

    Last year we concluded some extensive training (with blue guns, we were going to continue with Simunitions, but COVID happened) where we found that if a threat is within bad-breath distance, drawing from a bladed stance, holster 3:00 or farther back, offered the opportunity to at least get a pistol out of the holster and up (using the weak-hand/arm for stand-off) before the threat closed and engaged; whereas, from AIWB, once the threat is at close-range, he can -- depending on his skill level and yours -- easily interdict your draw-stroke by stepping in and using any number of entries, even simply pinning your arm.

    Yep. Exactly. Too few train this way.

    My conclusion remains, AIWB (which I suspect most use because they believe it offers significantly better concealment for them) may be comfortable for some, may be convenient, but in most dynamic situations where one party or the other goes hands-on, there's too much risk. So for me, speaking of the draw, I am more concerned about the applicability in situations in which I might find myself, rather than the false promise of "superior concealment." As a citizen, most here probably don't care, but those who've worked the streets I suspect have a much better understanding.
     
    fastbolt and Rexster like this.
  17. WrongHanded
    • Contributing Member

    WrongHanded Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2017
    Messages:
    2,243
    One hand.

    But then the other hand too, for that BUG.
     
    Rexster likes this.
  18. CDW4ME

    CDW4ME Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2009
    Messages:
    1,956
    Location:
    FL USA
    I can see your point(s).
    Coming from the perspective of a concealed carrier, not a uniformed officer ...
    (I don't see cops carrying AIWB in uniform, may happen just aint seen it)
    AIWB would be advantageous if seated (like in a restaurant or vehicle) for quicker access.
    Strong side might be better if the threat was close as you described above.

    Its a typical day, no road trip.
    I'll use a "commander" size 1911 for my example, I can carry it either AIWB or strong side IWB.
    Walk dogs 1-2 miles, go on a bicycle ride/ thats it, end of choice; IME, AIWB doesn't work on a bicycle for me. Strong side it is.
     
  19. fastbolt

    fastbolt Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    2,980
    Location:
    Within the lightning
    From the perspective of someone who might find themselves trying to defend against someone trying to draw from AIWB (no particular shortage of criminals who carry that way, sans holsters) ...

    If someone is trying to access/draw their weapon in the front of their waistband, it makes it easier to "go at the gun" (hands on) and keep it pressed inward against their body.

    Trying to go at a gun holstered further around the waist requires more reach into the defender's centerline and defensive space, and it's harder (from the front) to turn the weapon "into them", unlike when it's already set up to keep it turned into them when it's carried AIWB.

    This is something that's easily demonstrated in unarmed SD training, and can include trying to get a knife into service, or just trying to prevent your hands from being more easily attacked and neutralized (if they're held in the front of your waist, versus further behind the hip, away from the attacker).

    There are pro's & con's of any carry method. Some are often touted as being better suited for ease of carrying a weapon, but that doesn't mean they'll be as practical for being able to draw against a sudden physical "intrusion" of a close range defensible space, or a confined space engagement. Fighting with a gun can be a lot different than carrying a gun, or just presenting a gun from various holsters.

    Choose your purpose and risk/benefit consideration of carry method, and then perhaps consider seeking some training by someone who has had the opportunity to learn the various advantages & disadvantages that may be relevant to your anticipated SD w/G situations.

    One size doesn't really fit all. ;)
     
    Kleanbore, Rexster and Hangingrock like this.
  20. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2006
    Messages:
    3,667
    I see the point in training both ways. I've also seen and experienced so many fumbled draws during close-in training that I personally am not even willing to try. For me, hand-to-hand is hand-to-hand until I have the time and space to execute the draw with however many hands I feel like.
     
  21. CopperFouling

    CopperFouling Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2013
    Messages:
    1,025
    Location:
    Midwest
    This is a fairly large barrier for me. Even my private club doesn't allow drawing and firing from a holster.

    Dry firing, though, is different. I practice one and two-hand draws.
     
  22. Izzy77

    Izzy77 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2010
    Messages:
    150
    Location:
    Florida and South Africa
    I agree with one hand draw practice. There are too many things you might need your other hand for ( steering wheel, Pepper spray/ other non lethal force, keys, knife, to push attacker away, etc., etc.)

    For me it's cross draw holsters IWB or OWB. you practice draw with both right and left hands seperately... it becomes a cinch to do with either hand. With proper adjusment you can draw easy from a seated position in a car ( etc.). In CCW you will often have a shirt in the way, try to dip or insert hand under shirt, keeping some buttons loose on the bottom.

    Please be sure the gun has the magazine out and check the chaimber before practicing quick draw. ( sorry to have to say this, but you never know who is reading).
     
  23. Izzy77

    Izzy77 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2010
    Messages:
    150
    Location:
    Florida and South Africa
    At the range most SD situations happen, that should be good enough. But if it irks you maybe a friend with some private land could help. ( assuming it's legal to shoot on private land in MO).
     
  24. murf

    murf Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2010
    Messages:
    5,021
    Location:
    arizona
    has anyone figured out which hand automatically goes up first for defense? in an adrenal-dump situation every move devolves to your training or to your basic instincts. i bet your strong hand is the one playing defense in this scenario.

    i agree about practicing the one-hand draw. i practice weak and strong side one-hand draws. when at home, consider this dry-fire practice and keep all ammo out of the room.

    luck,

    murf
     
  25. Palladan44

    Palladan44 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2020
    Messages:
    452
    Hopefully training and repetition do their part to reprogram my brain. BUT say I need both hands to deflect, say a smack to the head with a blunt object....yes, both hands will hopefully come up.
    Defend with everything you got, and draw when you can afford to. This all sounds great in theory, and i hope i never put it to the test. Close quarters SD is a damn art!!
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice