My $.02 about how I think you will use a knife for SD

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mercop

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Time to stir the pot again- in my limited experience the most common offensive and defensive cut is the angle one traveling from high right to low left for a right handed person. While making this statement I am of course not taking into account "shankings' that are typically executed buy grabbing the victim with the weak hand and then stabbing with the strong hand, most often from the rear right flank area of the victim.

It has also been my experience that you need a "clearing" cut while drawing an edged weapon during and altercation before you can physically stab. I also believe that these clearing cuts are more effective if they come up and under into your assailants body instead of from over the top and out to the side. This tends to not only back them up but also puts them back on their heels slowing a subsequent attack.

Another thing that people seem to fail to take into account when planning to stab during a self defense situation is loosing your knife in your attacker after the first stab. It is not uncommon at a homicide scene to find someone with a butcher knife stuck in them. It is not because the person who stabbed them left it as a calling card but rather they were unable to remove it.

My final $.02 on it are this, you are way more likely to get a chance to slash during and altercation and drawing a knife in fight usually requires at least one cut/slash. IMHO slashing with motivation and violence of action are your best failsafe technique if you are forced to use and edged weapon to defend yourself. Nobody lets a cat scratch the hell out of them while thinking to themselves "well at least he is not biting me?"

You will have to excuse me if I seldom engage in the best knife/gun for self defense discussions. My mindset is this, a snubby that goes bang every time and any decent folder you can open with one hand will get you home safe if you have the mindset and training. Carrying only those will also encourage you to AVOID anything that would require bigger medicine.



Your thoughts in relation to this subject?
 
hmmmm.

If I am using a knife to defend myself, it means a series of events has happened...

I have run out of ammo....
The gun broke into pieces as I was beating the BG with it.
I am in deep doo doo.

Then, since I will either be facing a mob of zombies or the reincarnation of Leatherface, I will more than likely flail about like an old lady swinging a broom at a bee, screaming hysterically.
 
"Carrying only those will also encourage you to AVOID anything that would require bigger medicine."

I'm not too big on this idea. I don't need any more motivation to avoid those situations. I see your logic but I don't agree, I want the best tools at my disposal. I'm not trying to say that a snubby and a knife aren't good enough either. That quote just makes it sound like you have something that you consider to be better than a snubby and a knife, I would carry whatever "that" is.
 
I was trained to use the knife as a slashing instrument rather than a stabbing instrument. Lethality is not the aim, ending the conflict quickly is. It would, more than likely, involve an idiot shedding copious amounts of blood. However, he or she would probably live to see another day -- as would I.

<><Peace
 
I think if I was going to use a knife in a fight, I'd be sure to make it a large knife.. ;)

In all seriousness, I imagine myself going for the midsection. I read somewhere that the sight of your own guts on the ground takes the fight out of you mighty quick. Morbid but I agree.
 
I have seen many gut cuttings in the hood and big bubbles of guts hanging out of them. In every case the person was standing and talking to me upon my arrival. Very little blood as well.

On the other hand even small lacerations to the head seem to freak people out because of the blood produced and not being able to to see and access the wound which is a primal response.
 
Sure do, it is called a long gun which is the choice of the police when you "know" you are going to a fight.

Touché...
I was just thinking in the world of concealed carry. However, if I "know" I will be in a fight I will go elsewhere or I will bring my long gun and a friend.
 
Curious (no agenda, don't read into it): How did you come to the conclusion that a slash is required often before you can stab? Do you take into account the fact that many victims of knife wounds report that they were unaware that they were being attacked with a knife until it was over?

I look at a knife kinda like a gun. Unless the CNS is attacked directly...he isn't gonnna drop immediately and them quitting or stopping due to a slash or stab would be up to them (thus unpredictable), not due to biological reasons until blood loss/shock has time to take effect.
 
Benchmade anyone

First slash across the forehead! Hold it like a hammer, thumb on back of blade. Blood pours down the face, your blade is not trapped in body mass... exit stage? left, either side, but go. If escape not available? Below.

Right handed? first cut from left to right (forehead) knuckles up, hand then turns to fingers up position, comes back again for slash, right to left, hit side of throat. Totally strong grip, maximum strength.

Knife must be very sharp, at least a 3.5" blade, lock blade, access lock.

Most altercations of a knife nature has you in a place you should not have been in the first place, and if you make mistakes, you will not leave.
 
I really, really, seriously hate to think about having to use a knife for SD.

That hasn't kept me from doing some 'just in case' training however. Given access to the snubby I usually carry, that would be my preferred defensive weapon. Failing that, I keep two useful folders handy, one of which should be available to one hand or the other (thanks, S'narc).

I wouldn't be going to blades unless 'my awareness failed' as Southnarc puts it. Given sufficient awareness of an impending assault I would either be out of there, or go to the snubby. As I see it a knife is a contact breaker, to get me out of a situation that I really should have seen coming in time to avoid. It is IMO a last ditch tool, to buy me space and time to either escape or get to the snubby.

lpl/nc
 
Check the way Romans drew and used their gladius and the way Moros use the kris before you make absolute assertions. People have been using blades for thousands of years, so nobody's made up anything new in a great long time.
 
Never have, and hope never will find myself in a situation where a knife is my best/last source of encounter stopping force, but in my training I was told to make sharp controlled slashes at distance and use repeated, quick, forceful stabs to the abdomen in very close encounters. Most people can't function well when their abdominal muscles are torn to shreds and blood is rapidly filling and flowing through the abdominal cavity. I was trained to avoid the chest area unless it was all that was available simply because the odds of the blade becoming lodged or glancing off all together where much higher than in the abdomen.
SRT
 
Interesting topic.

I was mentored to read people, places and things, and by doing so, I would prevent situations.

Instilled in me, was to not have to go to gun, knife or anything.
In fact my lessons, included not having a gun, or knife, and dealing with "set ups".

I was born in '55, mentors had been there and done that, and they wanted me to never , ever, think anything I had on person was going to keep evil away, or take care of evil if it showed up.
I am so grateful, to them, for passing this mindset to me, and others like me.


Each person, male or female, from being a kid, to older, has to access themselves, in activities of daily living (ADLs).
Where they go during the day, type of environment, any restrictions, and other factors.

For me, I was born into a hi-risk environment.
Back then, one was not dressed without a pocket knife, and kids took knives to school.
That knife had better be sharp, and the pivots oiled, because the Principal, school nurse, teachers would ask to see a boy or girls knife.

Re: Self Defense.
For me, I carried non locking , carbon steel pocket knives, some small fixed , and handcuff keys.
I entered the First Grade with these in 1961.

Oh I had my very own guns, and it fine to bring them to school for Show-n-Tell, but I am a First Grader.
We did not have "permits" to carry guns back in the day here.

If I screwed up and did not read a signal early enough, and then it got to what SouthNarc calls "3+1" then as a kid, six years old, I was going up an adult.
It did matter if a lady or gent, I was going up against someone bigger and stronger than me.

IF they got me, and tied my hands, and feet, or used hand cuffs, then my self defense tools, included, but not limited to, the knives and handcuff keys, accessible from hands in front, hands in back.

These lessons started when I was about 3 years old, same age I shot my very own .22 revolver.

Now, while I had stuff on my person, what was around , and what could I use?
It might be best to go into full bore squirming brat, and kick that gear shift , stalling a manual, or the few automatic transmissions.

It was suggested my mouth would be taped or gagged, but if not, scream , cuss, and yell Rape!
Even back then, yelling fire which got folks attention, did not get attention such as "rape" , or " I broke my arm", or believe it or not "My puppy got run over!"

I don't care how cold some folks are, a kid breaking a bone, or a puppy getting hurt, or run over, gets attention.

I was shown parts of the human body, and also those of animals.
Doctors and Veterinarians were part of the Mentors, as were nurses.
I saw folks/animals being fixed up, and I saw dead people and animals too.

Bullets, sharps, hangings, burns...showing a kid what did what and why this happens.


Self Defense:

Age 5, Grandma was still alive, and I had not entered first grade.
Hen & Rooster small pen knife with carbon steel blades is what I used when grabbed, and it was opened with one hand, and I went from the inside of arm down to wrist, and the adult male let go of me ....I ran like the wind, zigging and zagging, as he had gun too.
Moving targets are harder to hit, and I was making distance to cover, not concealment, cover as I was taught.

Case Barehead Slimline Trapper with CV blades , accessed with one hand, used strong hand ( right) is what I used.
I was grabbed, I had to walk down a "frame of death" as mentors called it, and despite doing everything correct, evil showed up.

If I had not been using a holster, I could have used the gun.

I screwed so much on this deal, it is unreal, Lady Luck showed up.
This guy was BIG, and here I am not yet a teenager.
I did not have what "they" thought I had, I was being the decoy, so someone else that did have, could go safely.

I have not room to do much, and I am up against another vehicle using my legs and he punched me square in the gonads.
I went down.
He literally threw me into a van of the day, across the seat and I could not leave via passenger door, as it was blocked by a building.

Things were not going good against this one guy, and then the second one , popped up from out of sight and grabbed me from behind around the neck.
Damn gun is in that stupid holster I knew better, still I could not get the gun.

Trapper was accessible to my hands and first guy had a gun, but we were in close quarters, so, heck, I gotta do something, even if wrong.
I have an arm around my neck, still I sliced under rib cage and from my right to left and opened this "gut " up through a cotton "work shirt", like a mechanic,or Cop wore back then.
Gun went off, he raised it and fired two shots.
Guy behind me, startled, relaxed his hold, and was letting go, when I got my arm b/t me and arm and cut, downward...
Engine was running, reached over with the first guy holding his guts, and pulled gear shift down, and turned the wheel and the van moved, as soon as I had room , I was out the door...van eased and stopped hitting the other side of alley, I later found out, I was gone...
Dry mouth, I could not speak, scream, nothing, but I could run.

After Action Report is what they call it now, still there was discussions on what I did right, what all I did wrong.

I share that simply because, I have always been at risk, and always have been in setting I cannot have a gun, or a knife.
I was under age 21 and we had no "gun permits" back then.
Judges, and Cops said for me to carry a gun, as they did others.
My first concealed carry if you will, began when I was in the 3 grade.
I had been wagging a gun with me, but mine were not small enough to conceal, so I was given my own, to conceal better for a kid my size.
Oh yes, a snub nose with a shirt worked, but something better suited to me, was done up.

We did not have all the locking knives back then, we just learned to use a pocket knife ( slip joint) , and pocket knives and fixed were what one does.

Lessons included, "physical items will give one a false sense of security, and allow one to get complacent about picking up signals".

Knives are just one tool in the tool box, not the tool.

Folks go on about topping off mags, carrying two guns, hi-cap guns, extra mags, knives, more than one knife...

For me, I cannot carry any of these now, in some settings.
I used to , in Judges chambers, courtrooms, airports, and even in a "gov't" building.
Drive onto a Military base and let in.
Onto the grounds of a prison, or some-such.
Before I was 18 or 21, and we did not have permits.

Still, back then, there were settings I could not.
Today, forget doing lots of stuff I used to!

TSA got my hand cuff keys.
Random check, and I was not even in the secure area.
Mine I had fashioned to look like keys to a silver chest, or diary.
They did not buy the idea these were cabinet keys.

If you see a set of gold plated hand cuff keys, they are mine.

I have nothing against new knives, and methods.
Actually some of the new stuff, is really old stuff, re-discovered.

One of my defaults of character is, I care.
I care about folks, and this gets me into all sorts of trouble.

I cannot have folks get hurt, because they put stock solely into physical things, and therefore become too confident, which leads to being complacent, and then they do not catch a signal , which if caught early enough, would prevent having to defend.

I am carrying a SAK Classic, that needs sharpening, for those interested in what knife I really am carrying.

Yes, the Peanut is gone.
 
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Touché...
I was just thinking in the world of concealed carry. However, if I "know" I will be in a fight I will go elsewhere or I will bring my long gun and a friend.

And tell the friend to bring his long gun!!
 
There are two ways I can see using a knife for self-defense. Understand that I believe knives are better suited for offensive use.

1: Offense is the best defense. Go in hard. Throat, groin, and inner thigh cuts are the goal*. Stay inside unless facing multiple attackers. (*if you have a larger knife, under ribs and in kidneys could work, too.)

2. Cut them down. Keep knife between you and the attacker. When they attempt to attack, you cut their delivery system (usually hand or arm, but legs & feet okay, too).

Some folks like to train to use the knife to buy distance or defend while they draw sidearm. Me, not so much.

John
 
I have nothing against new knives, and methods.
Actually some of the new stuff, is really old stuff, re-discovered.

I would say that ALL the new stuff is really old stuff re-discovered, albeit imperfectly. It's no mystery that people who depended on blades for their everyday survival and defense probably knew lots more about their use than us "modern" saps. We take a few courses and spend a couple hundred hours training with edged weapons and think ourselves proficient. The lowliest grunt in a Roman Legion could probably take most of the self proclaimed experts of today apart quite handily.

His qualifications would include actually having survived pitched battles with bladed weapons against opponents armed with bladed weapons. Ditto for all the front line troops who manned the armies of the world before firearms became common. A lot of it is mind set and experience. It takes a sterner mentality than most possess to look someone in the eyes at contact distance and kill them before they kill you.
 
JShirley and I have communicated in private, many "tools of the tool box".

I agree with John, knives and many other tools are best used foroffensive
use.

The word "offensive" will offend many, and only think of Military or Law Enforcement persons who are expected to run toward harms way.

No.
Because I was never a LE, nor was in the Miltary.
I was taught, starting as a wee brat, offensive shooting, and use of small knives and other tools.

Along with "right or wrong" situations , or when older and better to understand the Legal" aspects of :

1. What a prudent person would do in this situation.
2. Beyond a reasonable doubt.

Problem 2 has always existed, though it was and has been called other things - still after a serious situation of any kind, such as a fire, car wreck, or one staying safe, there will be investigations as to what happened, the events that led up to , the events during, impressions observed and reported by first responders (Police, Fire, EMT, Search & Rescue, witnesses, ...), and behaviors of persons during investigation and in a court of law.

JShirley wrote:
Some folks like to train to use the knife to buy distance or defend while they draw sidearm. Me, not so much.

I agree.

John is also aware of some of my take, and why for an offensive tool, I like small pen knives, that do not lock, nor have assisted opening.

I really do miss the free advertising knives of yesteryear, with carbon steel blades , with a beaded key chain.


mercop I really do understand your original post, more than you or many around here might think I do.

I care.
Those that know me, say I care to a level where it is a default of character, and I admit, this is one of my defaults of character.

Being "discovered" again are a number of things around the world:

-It is the intent of the user, not the tool that is good or bad.

UK banned all knives, then it dawned on them, what were chefs and other persons, such as surgeons going to do?

Restrictions only aid the criminal, and impede the law abiding.

-UK and other "restricted" peoples, including those living in the USA, are having to learn, "what to do" with "what they can".

I am in settings where a person may not have a knife, that:
- locks,
- assisted in opening,
- bigger than 3" closed.
3" is the knife itself, not the blade itself.

There are other restrictions as well, for some setting, still these are the basics.

Criminals keep using restrictive "items" , such as gun and knives , in a offensive manner.

Persons are having to discover "what to do" as many are younger, and were raised in setting were they were not parented, or mentored, in Street Smarts.


I cannot have some person go into a pawn shop, spend $8 on a Rambo Fantasy knife with a sawtooth edge, compass in the handle and fishing line and fish hooks in the handle and "feel" just because they have this physical item, they are ready for anything.

I don't let folks have this feeling after lessons and hundreds of rounds downrange with a shotgun.
Not even if we just shot 100 rds of slugs downrange.

I care.
I cannot let folks have these mindsets.

Steve
 
There is no winner in a knife fight.

Of course there is, so long as you cheat and bring a gun... :evil:

Long ago, far away, in a different time in my life a grizzled old NCO put it best: "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'." ;)
 
There are two ways I can see using a knife for self-defense. Understand that I believe knives are better suited for offensive use.

1: Offense is the best defense. Go in hard. Throat, groin, and inner thigh cuts are the goal*. Stay inside unless facing multiple attackers. (*if you have a larger knife, under ribs and in kidneys could work, too.)

2. Cut them down. Keep knife between you and the attacker. When they attempt to attack, you cut their delivery system (usually hand or arm, but legs & feet okay, too).

Some folks like to train to use the knife to buy distance or defend while they draw sidearm. Me, not so much.

John

/\ pretty much how I was taught too.

Attack what attacks you if you are using it defensively. Arm comes toward you, it goes back bloody, hopefully with some connective tissue damage. Same thing with legs/feet.

At grappling distances there are other more "advanced" tactics that are either disabling or lethal.

The thing to remember about knife fighting though is that in all likelihood you are going to bleed. "One guy goes to the hospital, the other guy goes to the morgue".
 
I've practiced self defense with knives for far longer than I have with firearms (I've only been of legal age to carry a firearm for not even one full year as of this writing!)

The result of all my training and practice tells me that the knife is going to be primarily a tool of persuasion when used for self defense. Wide, slashing motions are good for getting your attacker to back off, and in a self defense situation, are more effective than stabbing. Stabs will cause much more permanent damage, but unless you were accurate enough, and used enough force to drive the knife through the spinal column, (UNLIKELY!!!), the fight is going to continue until your opponent bleeds out.

If you're using a knife in self defense, your goal is to use the knife to ward your attacker off. ENDING the fight would be done by using impact from a blunt instrument (your own body is equipped with a good number of these, or you could attempt to use the pommel of the knife).


The bottom line is, unarmed blows (elbows are very effective for this) are going to end the fight much more effectively than a wound caused by your knife, but your knife gives you an incredible advantage in forcing your opponent into such a strike.



Now, in previous posts I've stated that my preferred knife for carry is a Cold Steel Delta Dart, which sounds odd considering that it's practically incapable of doing damage with a slash.

1: A quick, wide slashing MOTION with the delta dart will still cause the opponent to instinctively react to avoid it, so with the intent of positioning your opponent for a disabling strike, it is still as effective.
2: There's far less likelyhood of cutting myself on the draw, since I carry one in my right sleeve when wearing a loose, long-sleeved shirt or coat.
3: It's usable as a palm stick/kubotan, which is another extremely effective tool in melee combat.
4: The knife is long, but the actual blade length is very short, so it's legal in many areas where a conventional knife of the same size would not be.
5: (and to be honest, this one was an important one when I made the selection) It's pretty darned cheap! A lot cheaper than a conventional edged knife of the same size!
 
I was taught that the knife in the weak hand was to protect the gun and gunhand. Slash, don't stab. Hands, forearms, faces are best, the rest is either too hard to hit or tends to trap the knife.

It's always made sense to me.
 
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