My $.02 about how I think you will use a knife for SD

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Your thoughts in relation to this subject?

In no particular order:

I think training to use edged weapons as a less than lethal, to rely on biomechanical cuts, to rely on phsycological reaction to cuts, to rely on physiologocal reaction to cuts, to rely on behavior patters, to rely on movement patterns, to train to duel, to train always to this or always do that, to underetimate the effects of multiple stab wounds, all this and more... I believe to be misguided.

I also understand that some of it has worked for some people will continue to work for others.

What I just typed out is akin to "point shooting versus sighted fire," or "this caliber verses that caliber" debates to some.

--
Erik, who in the interest of dislosure carries a push dagger slightly off support-side center-line (accessible by both hands) and a Spyderco Pikal knife in the strong-side front pocket. Those choices are specific and I've integrated my edged weapon, empty hand, and weapon retention training, finding them more complimentary as time goes by.
 
You guys are crazy. It's all "how tho get the most from your bucket brigade" when chemical fire extinguishers are $12 at Lowe's. I carry a knife to cut packing tape, and because it has pliers attached. I carry a gun to help me out of a jam.

I've been to the pistol range. All of the people I'm worried about don't even go there--and I'm quite confident (after seeing them shoot) that three running steps will keep me safe (even) from the ones who do.

In this day and age, fighting back gets you prison time. If you are unlucky enough to have to choose between prison time and being a victim, RUN AWAY!! If you've got kids with you, SHOOT UNTIL YOU RUN OUT OF BULLETS!! Then beat them to death with a fire extinguisher--they're only $12 at Lowe's for goodness' sake.
 
Slashes maim, stabs kill. I've been stabbed and the funny thing is that you don't realize it right away. I thought I'd just been punched. If someone pulls a knife to intimdate you by slashing the air in front of him a few times, pick up a brick and hit him with it. If you miss, beat feet while he's dodging the brick. If someone who knows what they're doing with a knife grabs you and jackhammers you with about 10 or 20 stab wounds, get ready to say your prayers.

Seriously, JShirley has it exactly right. The biggest advantage of a knife is stealth in the offensive mode. If you pull one on me before you're in contact you're gonna get shot. If I don't have a gun, you're gonna get the nearest chair, trash can, fire extinguisher or brick upside the head. If someone wants to pull a knife and duel me when there's a shovel or two-by-four handy, well, that's his bad. He better get to me with the knife before I know he has it or he has a real problem.
 
Doc2rn,

Respectfully, I can't agree that there is no winner in a knife fight.

The one who survives is the winner. Winning (and surviving) can be painful and expensive, but it always beats losing.

I've been slashed, good and deep, accross the back above my right hipbone. I didn't feel anything at the time and it didn't even slow me down (later, it hurt like sin). The wound produced a lot of blood and looked bad but it didn't have any effect on my ability to function. Cutting the goblin is not enough. You have to eliminate the goblin's ability to hurt you.

We were trained to slash at whatever peice of meat presented itself with primary emphasis on cutting deep into muscles of the forearms, and the bicep/tricep areas of both arms to disable. The neck is great but sometimes hard to reach. Slash deep into the thighs if you can reach them. Take away the arms and it's pretty much over. Once the goblin is disabled you can take whatever action is then appropriate.

Keep in mind, the goblin will be trying to do the same to you. Expect to get cut (you may not, but you probably will) and expect to work in blood.

Ugly, unpleasant business, but something we should all prepare ourselves for both mentally and physically.

Not intended as advice or instruction, just my thoughts.

Respectfully,

DarkSoldier
 
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I would think that if I were in a knife fight, the person I was fighting with would not know I had a knife until he got the point of it in his ribs.
Why show what you've got? You fight to win, don't you?

Some things I was taught:
Keep the blade concealed until you're ready to use it, don't flash it around because then you lose the element of surprise.
Keep it close to your body - this makes it more difficult to have it taken away from you.
Stabs are what does the killing, not slashing.

In my real job, I work in a hospital, and I've seen more than one person come in with stab wounds to their knees - sometimes about 15 stab wounds to just one knee.
This immediately made me think that all a Karate stance does is stick your knee out there so it would be easier to stab...

Some reasons to stab someones knee (not that I'm recommending this, but I've certainly thought about it a lot):
Not necessarily lethal.
Very unexpected by your opponent - puts the fight right out of him; they can't run after you.
I have seen the biggest, buffest, most tattooed guy crying like a baby because his knee looked like it went through a food-processor - kinda sad, really.

If you know of anybody who teaches how to use a blade, it might be worthwhile to receive some instruction from them.
James Williams teaches an informative class on defense against knife attacks and also self-defense with a knife.

http://www.dojoofthefourwinds.com/instructor.html

This one has a neat video:

http://systemofstrategy.com/james-williams/
 
I've read this thread, and I agree with most of the serious ideas on defense.

Foremost is the concept that there is no "good knife fight." Most barroom brawls are more of a pushing and shoving affair, not the place I want to be in, and then add cutlery on top of it.

Nor in an alley, or the parking ramps we have in Madison. Even at high noon on a sunny day, the ramps are dark, dank and a very serious place in which to be surrounded.

However, contrary to the joke, the best place to have a knife is in a gunfight. Most shots are fired within a few feet, and slashing your aggressor's gun hand or his face might mean a very real chance to escape.

Having said all of that, what do I give my clients for safety? You cannot (legally) carry a CCW firearm in Wisconsin, and we've had several violent murders here within the past few months.

As you can tell, I'm vacillating all over the map. I have never been in a knife fight. My introduction into MA was shared info from other bikers. Most of the knives I carry are "tools." They are things like Buck 110's and Emerson folders. It has only been in the last year that I have branched out into Graham Razels, a useful tool and pretty good choice for defense.

If I also was allowed my $.02, I think my approach would be to "slash and dash." Obviously, if a major artery is offered that's another story.

But my job as a non-sworn citizen is just to escape with my life. I'll let the kendo boys clearly define grace and poise. I'm an old, ugly biker who hates it when I have to lay around healing.
 
I like the observation that we moderns "rediscover" the fighting techniques of the ancients. A case in point may be found in the Bible. In the book of Judges, a man named Ehud kills a wicked king with a short sword. How does Ehud perform this attack? He draws his blade from concealment and literally guts his opponent. Sounds surprising modern to me.

Another interesting point-no pun intended-to the Ehud story is the attack succeeds because of a stabbing rather than a slashing attack. The idea that "giving point" works best with a blade is found not only in this story, but also among the Romans, known for using a thrusting short sword known as the gladius. I thought a little historical sidebar might prove interesting at this time.


Timthinker
 
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corncob,

You don't go to blades because you WANT to. You do it because it's the only option you can manage at the time- IF you can manage even that.

I'd respectfully suggest you spend some quality time around folks like John Holschen or Southnarc, if you can manage it. Things don't always go the way you planned, you see- bad guys can have initiative too. Sometimes, as S'narc puts it, 'your awareness fails' and you get wrapped up before you know an attack is coming.

If that's the case, you will need any weapon you can get a hand to, and most rickytick to boot. Unless you have sidearms concealed on both strong side and support side, in high line, midline and low line positions (that would be at least six pistols, if you're counting- on both sides at neck/armpits, waistband and ankles) then it won't necessarily be a gunfight for you if things go bad.

I spent a good deal of time around a big wad of Special Forces soldiers once upon a time (which is how I came to know John Holschen- my bride and I took a knife class where he was a student too). You might be surprised what some folks carry about their persons, where and why. Blades, picks, impact tools, all sorts of things, in all sorts of places. Take a look at http://www.donrearic.com/covertweapons.html for some examples. I have seen various and sundry items like some of those (USGI and privately produced) that were used over the years. And the emphasis is on USED.

In parting I still say that it is not the hardware that matters so much as it is the skillset and the mindset. Without the latter two the former is mostly just decoration- and probably a future trophy for someone else to flaunt.

Stay safe,

lpl/nc

ETA: see http://www.shivworks.com/ for more re. Southnarc, http://www.insightstraining.com/us/sector_home.asp?categoryID=4 for more re. John Holschen and the other good folks at InSights.
 
I've also heard the saying that "there are no winners in a knife fight".

While we all know that this isn't entirely true, there is some basis for the statement. My experience as a street cop has shown me a few things that I (perhaps) didn't entirely appreciate before I went into this line of work:

1) knife wounds can be absolutely horrific. In my mind, the only advantage that a gun has over a knife is an ability to distance yourself from your attacker. Knife wounds are often worse than gunshot wounds.

2) An attacker who is skilled with a knife isn't going to let you see the knife coming. The knife can be a very effective tool with which to ambush someone who thought they were coming to a fist fight.

3) Many folks who have been stabbed (which includes a few LEO's that I know, fortunately not me!) report that they thought they were only being punched at the time of the attack.

So, you may not see it coming, you may not feel the slice of the knife, and you may be partially eviscerated before you even knew what hit you!

Knives are not necessarily an inferior weapon when compared to a gun. People tend to marginalize the damage that a knife/cutting instrument can do, and the age-old saying of "he brought a knife to a gun fight" often finds it's way into these conversations. That's all fine and dandy, as long as you keep your distance with that gun... Once you close the gap to an arm's reach, the gun loses almost any advantage that it has over a knife.
 
2) An attacker who is skilled with a knife isn't going to let you see the knife coming.
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Exactly.

About 5 or 6 years ago my stepmother was leaving an ATM in Memphis. She had not yet rolled up her window and a woman flagged her down "needing help". As she slowed the woman slapped her across her face and grabbed her arm that was still holding her wallet. Took the wallet and ran.

After the intitial shock of being slapped and robbed wore off, my stepmother realized she was bleeding from the face and arm. The female mugger had krazy glued utility razor blades between her fingers so the slap and grab points both bled profusely.

Point of all this: you won't necessarily see the knife/blade that cuts you. Also as others have already said, my stepmother didn't immediately realize she'd been cut.
 
I'll let the kendo boys clearly define grace and poise.
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:D

That poise and grace ain't necessarily because us Kendo boys are nice. Ya gotta be real careful when you're carrying 26 inches or so of razor blade around. That said, knives are like handguns: you carry them because carrying a sword or a battle axe is too inconvenient and awkward. As for poise and grace in combat, the time I got stabbed I ended the fight with a nice 35mm camera used like a mace. Worked pretty darn well, but didn't do much good for the camera.

That points up the limitation of a knife. Generally a slashing attack won't cut completely through your opponent like a good cut with a katana. In kenjutsu koryu (old styles) your basic target is to cut through to your opponent's spinal column or take a limb off. It takes too much blade and leverage to do that with a knife. On the other hand, a 3 1/2" to 4" knife can penetrate to vital structures if driven in with enough force. That's why good fighting knives have handguards. They're not so much for defensive warding purposes as to keep your hand from sliding up onto the blade from a forceful stab. Filipino blades like the Kris have an angled handle almost like the butt of a muzzle loading pistol to give more force and better grip for a stab. Slashes are good to get you close enough for stabbing, but they tend to give away the fact that you have a knife. Stabbing before your opponent even knows you have the knife is better.

Keep the blade concealed until you're ready to use it, don't flash it around because then you lose the element of surprise.
Keep it close to your body - this makes it more difficult to have it taken away from you.
Stabs are what does the killing, not slashing.
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Exactly.

In my real job, I work in a hospital, and I've seen more than one person come in with stab wounds to their knees - sometimes about 15 stab wounds to just one knee.
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And they probably happened in a couple of seconds. The "piston" technique is very effective. Grab something and hammer away. 15 stabs to the knee? That makes me shudder. :uhoh:
 
As for poise and grace in combat, the time I got stabbed I ended the fight with a nice 35mm camera used like a mace. Worked pretty darn well, but didn't do much good for the camera.
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In my case it was driving the fellow's head into the doorknob behind me. I caught the blade in the upper arm as he lunged, but I directed his head toward the doorknob. Doorknob came off, he went down, I got the helloutadodge. I'm glad my arm was there to keep the blade outta my ribs.
 
I got the helloutadodge.
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A wise choice. I did the same with the help of a couple buddies I had temporarily and unwisely separated from. Took the stab in the upper thigh when I blocked the knife arm down. The worst part was when the doc probed the wound with his fingers to check for internal damage. Still makes my hair stand on end. ;)
 
I used to be involved in the SCA (yeah, I know it's kinda geeky but it was fun). I don't know how realistic the fighting was since it was with rattan swords instead of steel, but one thing I noticed was even if you won the fight, you got a lot of light/glancing blows landed on you. The standard for whether a blow was considered a "killing" blow was whether a hit with a real sword would have penetrated chain mail. Of course an unarmored person would be cut up pretty bad even by a light blow. In a real fight with edged weapons I'm guessing even the victor would be pretty cut up. I can't imagine how badly soldiers got cut up back in the days of spears and swords.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is by God, don't get into a knife fight. Even if you win you're going to be one messed up SOB.
 
This thread has been on my mind. I was half joking before--but you guys do freak me out a little.

I suppose there is a psychological aspect to a gushing scalp wound, but I have always assumed that a blow with a heavy object (preferably about 230 grains) would give me the chance to run quicker than a knife wound would. I may very well be wrong.

All due respect to the cops and special forces guys around, but the way I see it all their tactics are offensive tactics. They take money to get involved in other peoples business, while I will have to pay a lawyer if I ever have to stop someone from getting involved in mine.
 
As with most threads on knife fighting, I begin to see a subtle tone when reading between the lines. Oh, we might admonish our fellow forum members that knife fights are serious, but I'll also bet that many of us slide a knife into our jeans simply as a "just in case" response to violence.

I'm not one of those guys. I don't want to be one of those guys.

Despite what you might think of the Cold Steel "Proof" DVDs, take a look at the condition of the hanging beef in those vignettes. Granted, I sense those knives are not the average edges right out of the box, but the idea is clear. A common, easily taught snap cut can slice deeply, sometimes through bones.

Now before you smirk, remember that this could be your flesh and bones.

As I have told you many times, I was never a soldier or a mercenary. However, I was trained in foil and saber. In college I was pleased to be one of Judge Archie Simonson's pupils.

So, many of you think so what. The truth is that sport fencers can cut you anywhere on your body at any time, from just about any distance, with just about any edged weapon. And as our highly trained kendo MA artists have already stated, you'll never see it coming. My guess is that your handgun will never clear leather.

I ask you to do some independent research. Go google some info on the 21-foot rule. Learn from people other than me about how serious this faction of security and safety truly is.

Then go to Snopes.com and search out the phrase "knife wounds."

I took some flak a few days ago about my stance on morality and edged tools. Here's thread I believe was proffered by a sincere OP in gathering info. What is your sincere rebuttal?
 
However, I was trained in foil and saber.
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My dentist while I was in Cheyenne was Dr. Mark Rinne. I believe Mark was an alternate on the Olympic fencing team in 1996. I've trained with Mark and his class a few times and I have the utmost respect for European style fencing. There are a great many things that any good martial artist can learn about footwork, distancing and timing from a good fencing instructor. I also learned a great deal about the use of the point of the blade from European fencing. A heavy slash will generally fail to kill, while a seemingly insignificant stab will be an effective fight stopper.

There is also a tactic described by a friend from South Africa, where hoodlums with long, narrow blades (sometimes icepicks) will hide them in a rolled up newspaper. They simply stab with the rolled up paper wrapped around the blade so that you never even know a knife is present. Would you draw and shoot someone attacking you with a rolled up newspaper? It would be a very tough call.
 
sacp81170a said:
A heavy slash will generally fail to kill, while a seemingly insignificant stab will be an effective fight stopper.
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I'm glad you mentioned the word "stopper." As good guys that should be our goal. But frankly, if the slash is of any consequence, the fight is over anyway.

BTW, I'd like to clear something up. I don't want to mislead you guys into thinking I'm prejudiced for the edged weapon. Knives are my job.

However, I've been a gun guy, a realoader, a collector and a plinker for over 40 years. I have been a professional tinker for 15 years.

My position is simply to try and point out the seriousness of knife encounters.

In the unlikely event that I would be dining with Jerry Vancook (Jerry, I'll buy dinner just to listen and learn), and an aggressor appeared, I would simply hand Mr. Vancook my Razel.

I'd then calmly go back to my steak and hope I didn't get splattered.

This is a serious topic, not a punchline to a "knife to a gunfight" joke.
 
SD w/ a knife means close quaters out of ammo.

starting top to bottom, you go throat, lungs, the femoral artery.

that would be my tactic.

never really thought more than that about it.
 
I carry a gun and a knife, sometimes a cane {thick homemade maple} but my main line of defense is my brain. Situational awareness, 21 foot rule,condition red, whatever you call it -think- scan for threats, analyse those around you, blend in, at the hint of trouble I am gone. all that said a couple years ago my system failed and i got bushwacked by some yahoo at 7/11, he pulled a knife on me and said gimme your wallet. Now this genius failed to notice he was trying to rob a biker in full leather and patch and carrying a helmet I hit him with the helmet and we commenced to scuffle. no gun, no knife was use by me just the helmet, and fists, only got a small cut on the sleeve of my leather
for all i know he is still lying in that parking lot

too old and infirm to do that again{maybe not} but i guess my point is use what is at hand but first and foremost avoid letting the brown stuff hit the blades
thanks for letting a old man ramble
 
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Perhaps the most common perpetual threads in the NFW forum are about "which knife for defense". I usually suggest that a small knife is not a very good defensive tool, and then go on to suggest various thing that could be used as effectively, or that will give distance if facing a threat.

Knives are serious. Unfortunately, unless he's careless, you may not know a threat actually has a knife. Train in responses that work for knife attacks as well as other strikes. "X block"?!! You're gonna get cut.

John
 
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