The element of surprise

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SSN Vet

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We had a very sad incident a few weeks back where a local police chief was killed (days b4 his scheduled retirement) and four other LEOs working with the NH DEA task force were seriously wounded, during the execution of a search and arrest warrant.

This article give the most comprehensive description released so far, and it appears that, though they had a authorization to execute a no-knock warrant at any time of day, they tried to peacefully have the local PD (who knew the guy) attempt to serve the warrants first.

My purpose in posting the link hear is that I think the element of surprise is a decisive factor in many engagements.

This forum often spends a lot of time hashing out hardware options and minutia details about how to draw a holstered weapon. But I think it's worth stepping back and considering the "big flick". And I beleive this engagement, illustrates how one individual with a "sneaky bastard" mindset took down 5 out of 9 officers with a handgun, while at least 6 of them were "suited up" with vests and patrol carbines.

~ 5,000 people turned out for Chief Maloney's funeral. And the two officers who took chest wounds a inch above the top of their vest have just been released from the hospital.

Please note.... I think the BG in this story is a drug addicted, evil and cruel killer who deserves what he got and more. In no way am I trying to hold him up for admiration.

My proposal for discussion is that any law abiding and peace loving person can add a great deal of effectiveness to their self defense situation, by using surprise to their advantage. And I'd like to hear some ideas how other forum members think that can be done.
 
Good grief. We're going to argue the "element of surprise" angle of the OC -vs.- CC argument again? AGAIN? Can we stick to some other aspect of the question?

Maybe instead we could point out how incredibly useful an example this is of why clearing a house (ANY house, even YOUR house) is incredibly dangerous.
 
It is very difficult to use surprise in SD. That is because SD is a reactive role: you are responding to another person's actions. True, the simple act of defending yourself may surprise attackers to some extent. However, if the attacker already has a gun on you, an attempt to surprise him may not improve things.

I am sure I could think of some scenarios (prolonged encounters where the victim first complies and then defends himself with a sudden counter-attack) where surprise comes to bear in SD. But most of the time if there is a surprise, it will be the attacker surprising you.

My respect for the dead Chief and the injured officers.
 
This story has pretty much nothing to do with SD and the question of surprise could be asked just as well without it. Also, don't see it as being much relevant to the debate of checking one's home. Police ringing a door bell and then crashing in a door doesn't seem very similar to me checking the house after hearing a noise. If an intruder is being loud enough that you know for sure one is in your home then he's probably not planning on hiding in wait but still its tactially best to hole up with gun trained on the door in such an event. In reality most people aren't going to call the police because some single strange noise wakes them and most intruders are going to avoid making another noise so its either check or go back to bed. The latter seems riskier to me since i'd rather meet him while awake over asleep. And if his plan is to lie in wait for you to begin with, which seems highly unlikely, a second noise is also not going to follow. The only thing the story did for me is make me think about the fact that some families lost their fathers bc of some pointless war on drugs.
 
For the bump in the night scenario, my "strategy" is to arm myself and make it to a predetermined point first. At that point, I'm in-between an intruder and my family an I can lay in wait, listen carefully and take as much time as I need to call for help if needed. This is different than hiding in the most remote corner of my house and certainly safer than trying to clear the house. As long as I can arm myself and get to that point first, I feel that I'm in control of the situation.
 
War on drugs

This guy wasn't just some happy go lucky user... He clobbered some guy outside a bar a year ago after getting bounced an also liked to beat up his girlfriends.
 
Some scenarios are just what they are and no matter how much preparation you do it's gonna turn out bad.
 
Back to surprise as a SD aspect. I know of two incidents where surprise played a role in the good guy winning.

The first is off the DVD 'lessons from the street' from the PersonalDefense Network. A guy was returning to his car from shopping. Two BG's, guns drawn, confront him at his car. He's armed, but trying to draw and take down two guys that have the drop on him would be suicide. The BG's force him to drive back to his house to rob the house---but they don't know the GG is armed. GG plays it cool, and at the house one BG stays with him while the other BG heads for the far end of the house.
When the BG with the GG is momentarily distracted by something he found… the GG pulls his weapon and shot him dead. BG #2 hears the shots and comes running to see what's up and our GG shoots him dead as well.
 
The second incident comes from a Youtube Video 'offduty cop shoots guy trying to rob him'. This takes place somewhere in South America. Our GG is at the far left ATM of 3 or 4 ATM machines.

BG shows up and demands money. BG is tl the right side of our GG, who never fully turns around when confronted. While the BG waits nervously for a few mintes our GG goes calmly about completing his banking transaction. As soon as the GG gets his money and begins to turn towards the BG, our GG is also drawing a pistol from his LEFT side which the BG never saw. The GG shot the BG to the ground, and I have no idea if the BG lived or not.

The GG was an off duty cop, left handed, who chose that far left ATM to keep his gun hand free and the BG couldn't see that side. Surprise!
 
I think rather than surprise I would like to use dirty or cunning to describe how I would react to an aggressive attack. Ruthless has been described before with some disagreement and I suspect dirty and cunning might not sit well with some either.
 
Bill Jordan was LE (US Border Patrol). That may have colored his perception that there actually is a "winner" in a gunfight.

For private citizens, I think Mas Ayoob's saying is closer: "There is no winner in a gunfight; just two different types of loser."

I don't have any problem with the word cunning in SD, but it seems to me that a cunning person would arrange to avoid an attack, not respond to it cunningly. If I wanted a another adjective (besides reasonable and prudent) to describe my actions in SD, I might prefer "lightning-fast"! :D
 
Your pointless agenda couldn't be more obvious. If you don't like open carry, then don't carry openly. Do we really need to debate this again?
 
Posted by SSN Vet: My proposal for discussion is that any law abiding and peace loving person can add a great deal of effectiveness to their self defense situation, by using surprise to their advantage. And I'd like to hear some ideas how other forum members think that can be done.
Click to expand...
If one's objective is to prevail in an attack against someone else, the element of surprise can be quite helpful. That would be useful in a military engagement, or in a criminal act.

In a self defense encounter, however, the defender is only justified in using deadly force if there is reason to believe that he or she is about to be attacked.

There are all kinds of tactics that can reduce the likelihood of such an attack, and there are tactics that can make the defense more effective, but just how would a defender "surprise" someone who has already presented an imminent threat, and has provided the "AOJ triad" justification for deadly force?

The attacker will have already identified or selected the victim and will know where he is, or there will be no justification for self defense. The only "surprise" tactic I can visualize is keeping the attacker unaware of the defender's imminent use of defensive force, and that would seem to apply only in the case of an armed robbery where the attacker is seeking compliance.

What am I missing?
 
I've always pictured the "element of surprise" as something out of the wild west. Quick draw gunfights and all that....
 
You had better be sure of the other persons intent before you surprise them otherwise it is called murder. Very shaky ground here, brings the term jumping the gun to mind.
Not on topic for the intent of the OP as it involved law enforcement just a caution to my fellow armed citizens.
T
 
The attacker will have already identified or selected the victim and will know where he is, or there will be no justification for self defense. The only "surprise" tactic I can visualize is keeping the attacker unaware of the defender's imminent use of defensive force, and that would seem to apply only in the case of an armed robbery where the attacker is seeking compliance.
Click to expand...
Or seeking compliance for the moment.

There have been a number of well documented cases where a victim complied initially because there was no choice but later "surprised" the attacker by accessing a concealed weapon when the attacker was distracted or when the victim perceived that compliance was not going to be a good long term survival strategy.

Helen Weather's self-defense shooting is an excellent example. She initially complied but when the attacker refused to take the money and leave and tried to move her to a secondary location she drew a concealed weapon and shot the attacker.

Mark Yurh's shooting is another example. He gave up his money and his cab, but when he realized that he was about to be shot, he drew a concealed weapon and shot the attacker.

There was a personal incident recounted on THR by QuarterBoreGunner some years ago where the employees of a gun store/range were rounded up and taken into the alley. At the point that the criminal told the employees he was going to kill them, one employee drew his concealed firearm and shot the attacker.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=753691&postcount=38

Basically you have the option to pick the time to respond. You can choose not to respond immediately and see if compliance will end the situation safely and still choose to keep your weapon--something that is not possible with open carry. If you're openly carrying, you still have the choice not to respond and to try compliance, but you will certainly be disarmed if you make that choice. If you later change your mind, or have it changed for you by the attacker, you've lost your ability to mount an armed response at that point.
 
JohnKSa said:
You can choose not to respond immediately and see if compliance will end the situation safely and still choose to keep your weapon--something that is not possible with open carry.
Click to expand...

Open carry allows the criminal to make the determination to pass you up in favor of a much, much easier target - something that is not possible with concealed carry.

http://www.examiner.com/article/open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-kennesaw

Here we go...this argument can go on...

Infinity.jpg
 
the main problems/mistakes that are made by the cops serving arrest/search warrants,is they do not/or too cheap,to buy/use an infra red device to see into the residence like the fire dept uses to find hot spots from outside the residence.this would save tons of grief by pinpointing suspect location and movement so the proper external precautions could be made.i think it was tampa had a couple cops killed by suspect hiding in the ceiling.
 
I don't really want to see anymore military grade surveillance equipment in the hands of civilian police agency's nor do I approve of the rise in paramilitary units within these agency's.
More lives would be saved if they would spend more time waiting for the suspect to present himself in his most vulnerable way and then make the arrest.
There will always be times when immediate action are required but there would be fewer raids on the wrong house and subsequent injury or death to innocents if they spent more time making sure of their targets. The element of surprise is still on their side and the danger to LE and the public is decreased.
 
Doesn't seem as if we're going to be able to extract any more material of relevance to ST&T out of this one, so...
 
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