The FOPA is coming under SCOTUS scrutiny

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HKUSP45C

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as my understanding goes as of Dec. 6th. What will this mean (if a win is established) for all "commerce clause" laws?

edit; this is the case:
In the Supreme Court of the United States
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, PETITIONER
v.
ROBERT WILSON STEWART, JR.
 
Hm. Seems like this could mean either we win and win big, or we lose and don't lose anything further, that is that the law isn't changed?

Am I correct here?
 
I was really more concerned not so much with machine guns. I was more curious about the implications of ALL the "commerce clause" Fed laws. Laws like prohibition of drugs and racketeering and income tax. Won't killing this one kill those soon? :confused:
 
We do lose further...

If it goes against Stewart, it sets a precedent for banning a category of firearms. The original NFA merely required the registration and transfer tax because at the time, the government believed the 2nd Amendment does guarantee the individual right to own any type firearm. The FOPA was an outright ban on new machineguns. If SCOTUS decides one class of firearms can be banned from the public, it is just a matter of the .gov expanding and adding other "classes" of firearms the banned list.
 
The original NFA merely required the registration and transfer tax because at the time, the government believed the 2nd Amendment does guarantee the individual right to own any type firearm.

I think the reason it was formulated as a tax wasn't a 2nd amendment issue. I believe that congress (and the ussc) at that time believed the US government to be one of delimited powers. There's no power to restrict firearms in the US constitution, but there is taxing authority. They didn't believe they had the legal ability to regulate firearms directly, but figured taxing them prohibitively would work just as well and pass constitutional muster.
 
I found this part of the writ interesting
Wickard thus establishes that Congress may regulate non-commercial intrastate activity if regulation of the activity is reasonably necessary to achieve Congress’s
objectives with respect to an interstate market.
as it clashes seriously with this from Printz
(Thomas, J., dissenting). Even if we construe Congress' authority to regulate interstate commerce to encompass those intrastate transactions that "substantially affect" interstate commerce, I question whether Congress can regulate the particular transactions at issue here. The Constitution, in addition to delegating certain enumerated powers to Congress, places whole areas outside the reach of Congress' regulatory authority. The First Amendment, for example, is fittingly celebrated for preventing Congress from "prohibiting the free exercise" of religion or "abridging the freedom of speech." The Second Amendment similarly appears to contain an express limitation on the government's authority. That Amendment provides: "[a] well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." This Court has not had recent occasion to consider the nature of the substantiveright safeguarded by the Second Amendment. 1 If, however, the Second Amendment is read to confer a personal right to "keep and bear arms," a colorable argument exists that the Federal Government's regulatory scheme, at least as it pertains to the purely intrastate sale or possession of firearms, runs afoul of that Amendment's protections. 2 As the parties did not raisethis argument, however, we need not consider it here. Perhaps, at some future date, this Court will have the opportunity to determine whether Justice Story was correct when he wrote that the right to bear arms "has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic." 3 J. Story, Commentaries §1890, p. 746 (1833). In the meantime, I join the Court's opinion striking down the challenged provisions of the Brady Act as inconsistent with the Tenth Amendment.
Perhaps that future date is upon us.
 
I think the reason it was formulated as a tax wasn't a 2nd amendment issue.
The reason the NFA was formulated as a tax was specifically because of the 2nd Amendment. The government wanted to stop the gangsters from running around with machineguns and sawed off guns. They believed they couldn't simply ban these weapons due to 2nd Amendment protections so they came up with a $200 tax on them. During the 1930s, this was a considerable amount of money.

And as with all gun control laws, it didn't work. The gangsters didn't bother with registration, so the only people it effected were the average citizens that couldn't afford $200 in the middle of the depression.
 
And as with all gun control laws, it didn't work. The gangsters didn't bother with registration, so the only people it effected were the average citizens that couldn't afford $200 in the middle of the depression.

Even without the depression $200 was an absurd amount of money for a tax. It was effectively a complete ban on legal ownership for all but the most wealthy (ironicly the big crime lords of the time were in this category). Bear in mind that this was a $200 tax in a time where brand spanking new full-auto 1921 thompsons were selling for between $175-$250 and were considered ABSURDLY EXPENSIVE. You could buy a brand new Model-T for $290 in the mid-twenties.
 
This is Very Interesting, Hopefully this will be our next victory in beating back the flood of lies the anti's constantly spew.

If this is to succeed, I think we will need to get a a ton of support behind it & keep the "Nobody needs a Full Auto to hunt with" crowd quiet & out of the public eye, as well as have a lot of cool headed people that project a strong if not overwhelming positive feel about the subject on tv/radio.

& perhaps beting the anti's at there own "Psycological Game" may also be worth looking into.

:cool: :cool: :cool:
 
HK,

The 2nd amendment was discussed as an issue during the debates on the NFA, but it seems to me that the more important problem to Congress at the time was dealing with the restrictions imposed by the 10th amendment.

The fact that the Harrison Narcotic act was passed using exactly the same strategy seems a clear indication that Congress was struggling to find a way around a more general limitation than that posed by the 2nd amendment. Even without the 2nd amendment, Congress would have had no power to regulate firearms directly.

Their problem was that the Constitution granted no authority to the Federal goverment to engage in the kind of policing that they wished to do; be it drugs, firearms, or whatever. The 10th amendment makes it clear, that powers not explicitly granted to the Federal Government are reserved to the states (or the peple). Use of the powers to tax and regulate interstate commerce, and in 1930 the power to establish post offices (to prohibit handguns going through the mail) provided constitutional grounding for this expansion of power into what had previously been the realm of state control.


The constitutional basis for the NFA was extensively discussed in Congressional hearings prior to its enactment in 1934.[54] Congress was acutely aware that it had no constitutional authority to prohibit possession of machineguns and other firearms altogether.[55] Initially, the registration bills relied on both the interstate commerce and the taxation powers.[56] As adopted, however, the NFA was passed solely as a tax measure.[57]

The leading spokesman for the bill was Homer S. Cummings, U.S. Attorney General, who spoke to the House Ways and Means Committee early in its hearings:

Now we proceed in this bill generally under two powers--one, the taxing power and the other, the power to regulate interstate commerce. The advantages of using the taxing power with respect to the identification of the weapons and the sale, and so forth, are quite manifest. In the first place, there is already in existence a certain machinery for dealing with the collection of taxes of this kind, and these powers are being preserved in this particular act. In addition to that, it is revenue-producing....(p.606)

...

... We have followed, where we could, the language of existing laws as to revenue terminology; and we have followed the Harrison Anti-Narcotic Act in language so as to get the benefit of any possible interpretation that the courts may have made of that act.[58]

Noting that Congress had no power to prohibit firearms altogether, Cummings stated: "[W]e have no inherent police powers to go into certain localities and deal with local crime. It is only when we can reach those things under the interstate commerce provision, or under the use of the mails, or by the power of taxation, that we can act."[59]

CONGRESS INTERPRETS THE SECOND
AMENDMENT: DECLARATIONS BY A CO-EQUAL
BRANCH ON THE INDIVIDUAL RIGHT
TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS
Stephen P. Halbrook

[54] See, e.g., 1934 House Firearms Hearings, supra note 51, at 6.
[55] Id. at 19.
[56] Id. at 86.
[57] Id.
[58] Id. at 6.
[59] Id. at 8.
 
JimPeel,

As you noted, the state's writ that this case should hinge around Wickard is amazing given all of the cases (Lopez, Morrison, Printz-Mack, etc) which have served to trim that affront to the Commerce Clause and the 9th and 10th Amendments.

Let's hope Stewart's attorney is skilled.

Rick
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the NFA originally set up as a result of the organized crime popping up during prohibition?

Well, prohibition was repealed in 1933, the same year that the NFA was passed.

A lot of folks figure that it was enacted to give thousands of revenooers, who would otherwise have no job, something to enforce after the repeal.
 
No doubt, this occupies their thoughts as we speak...

"was more curious about the implications of ALL the "commerce clause" Fed laws. Laws like prohibition of drugs and racketeering and income tax. Won't killing this one kill those soon"

I have a hunch this very thing is what they are discussing in chambers right now. If the SCOTUS workslike the rest of politics, they will decide their position and write it waaaaaaayyyyy before the trial (or election, to follow the analogy). Then after the trial they publicize it, perhaps wth some last minute badgering on fence-sitters.

So right now they are deciding between striking the commerce clause or upholding it on intrastate non-commerce. Upholding it keeps the power fo congress to tax and otherwise intrude upon our economic lives, but deals a long-term fatal blow to the 2A. Striking it down brings down the federal governents power to tax a large portion of the economy, takes the teeth out of various tax agencies (like the gun owners favorite bad-boy, the ATF), etc.

Do you seriously think theywill rule in favor of gutting the (ill-gotten and illegal) power of congress? I don't.

In reality, they are deciding between upholding the commerce clause, or the weasel but-better-for-us approach of upholding the CC, but finding some obscure case tosupport the power to tax while maintaining the 2A as an individual right (i.e. maintain status quo).

I have no faith that the current justices will uphold the constitution. They haven't been able to be trusted to dothat for decades.

C-
 
I find it interesting that Mr. "Individual Right" Ashcroft allowed the DoJ to Petition for Cert here.
 
io333:
Ashcroft (or Gonzales after he becomes AG) has to work to uphold current law, its his job. The executive branch doesnt have the power to say if a law is good or not, they only work to uphold the current law and let the courts figure out if its acceptable or not.

Kharn
 
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