RKBA case before SCOTUS this session

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See my previous post. This isn't just some criminal losing a priviledge for violating foreign law, it's someone losing a Constitutionally guaranteed right preceisely because he exercised that right in a country noted for suppressing that right. It's like losing your 1st Amendment right to religion because you tried smuggling Bibles to Cuba.
I understand your point, and I think it makes for a fascinating debate (one in which I would be on your side).

However, while I have not read the transcripts of the case leading up to the SCOTUS appeal, I don't think your argument will make it before the court. I don't think the SCOTUS will look at the nature of the felony. I think they will rule on the broader question of whether or not a felony conviction under the laws of another country should act to trigger a prohibition under American law. Fundamentally, I don't think they will treat it any differently than if Japan had a law making spitting into the wind a felony and the guy was busted for spitting into the wind.

To be honest, in some ways I wish they WOULD look at it the way you propose, but on the other hand there are so many countries with (to us) strange and arcane laws that perhaps in the long run it might be better for them to avoid the RKBA issue and address the broader question.

After all, how would you like to be denied a CCW permit because ten years ago you spit into the wind in Nagasaki?
 
I agree SCOTUS cannot address the nature of the felony in question in the final analysis. However, they must address the very real possibility - perhaps by taking the case at hand as an example - that what constitutes a felony in much of the world may very well be a Constitutionally protected right in the USA. As such, they must disallow the "any court" reference from including foreign courts.

RKBA will not be in the final ruling of this decision, but it may play a key role as a prime example of felonious activity in foreign countries which is Constitutionally protected in the USA.
 
Yeah. Natural as in existing independent of the government, pre-existing as in anteceding the state, and universal as in possessed of people of all nations. Or is a piece of paper the source of our rights?

And where did that philosophical concept come from? Especially the universal part.....

WildwaitingforthisoneAlaska
 
And where did that philosophical concept come from?
Well I suppose one could start out with the works of Thomas Aquinas, fast forward to our nation's founding documents and contemporary writings, add to that 19th century theorists like Lysander Spooner, and then any of number of errornet sources and current academic journals on the subject of natural rights and law. Don't let me do your research for you...

pipofftothinkaboutgunsnowsqueak
 
Sorry WildAlaska but you are way off base in your counter-arguments here. Pipsqueak knows exactly what he is talking about in reference to unalienable rights.

So many people think we get our rights from the Constitution and I despise it when people know no better. It's like saying we want to spread democracy all over this planet....mob-rule (aka, democracy) sucks! No where in our Constitution, BoR or Declaration of Independence is democracy mentioned. It states a REPUBLICAN form of government with UNALIENABLE rights.
 
In fact, I believe the Constitution says "INalienable" rather than "UNalienable," but the point is the same. The Constitution does not grant the rights, it regards the rights as pre-existing and simply states that said rights shall not be taken away by the gummint.

Now ... if we could just get the gummint to READ said document ...
 
Wild, I'm talking about the difference between Gary Small importing guns illegally into Japan and U.S. servicepeople violating the UCMJ by bringing battlefield/trophy firearms into the U.S.

Since you think Gary Small is "scum", why don't you think that U.S. servicepeople who have done much the same thing are also "scum"?
 
WildAlaska:
Perfect gentlemen are rarely arrested for weapons violations, and thus rarely are able to present a case in court.

Kharn
 
OK...no computer at home so got to catch up....

Well I suppose one could start out with the works of Thomas Aquinas, fast forward to our nation's founding documents and contemporary writings, add to that 19th century theorists like Lysander Spooner, and then any of number of errornet sources and current academic journals on the subject of natural rights and law. Don't let me do your research for you...

OK so now we are gettin closer...we therefore bleieve that Western Philosophical/Political though postulates a pre exisiting right to keep and bear arms? Assuming that is the case, anyone want to tell me how that is now a universal right extended to all men??? Is it a perexisting right in China?

Since you think Gary Small is "scum", why don't you think that U.S. servicepeople who have done much the same thing are also "scum"?

Thats a little better.....now we have left the logical fallacy and are moving to a rationale behind my thought process....

OK....Assuming for purposes of argument you are talking about CURRENT servicemen smuggling in firearms, then yes, they do so they are scum, no matter how brave they are or how many medals they have. Thats becasue it is CLEARLY AND UNABASHEDLY unlawful but also CLEARLY violative of clearly stated muilitary regulation.

Now if your are talking about our daddys and grandpas (including members of my own family) then the case is different....in the 40s, things were different. Many soldiers went the war trophy route, others just stuffed em in the bag, with a *wink*, *wink*. Assuming ya smuggled a handgun into NYC without registering it, ya get caught, yer just another criminal scum like anyone else....many however did register their smuggled guns.....

So the answer to your question is..yes a vet who smuggles a WAR TROPHY back to the US can be just as scummy as Mr Small who probably was lookin to turn a few bucks and supplying the Yakuza



Perfect gentlemen are rarely arrested for weapons violations, and thus rarely are able to present a case in court.

Demonstrating of course that either law abiding weapons owners obey the law, or just dont get caught...


WildontothenextcrisisAlaska
 
OK so now we are gettin closer...we therefore bleieve that Western Philosophical/Political though postulates a pre exisiting right to keep and bear arms? Assuming that is the case, anyone want to tell me how that is now a universal right extended to all men??? Is it a perexisting right in China?

Yes it is, the Chinese government does not recognize them though, and the U.S. government isn't too far behind it seems.

In fact, I believe the Constitution says "INalienable" rather than "UNalienable," but the point is the same. The Constitution does not grant the rights, it regards the rights as pre-existing and simply states that said rights shall not be taken away by the gummint.

Yeah, I think it's kinda interchangeable. I've seen both actually, but it seems like it's just an evolution of our language. For example, we no longer spell "chuse" in that manner.
 
So, let me summarize Wild's positions. Rights are for Western folks and not Chinamen. Every law, written anywhere and at any time, is just, and breaking them makes you scum. Oh, except if you did it in the 1940's, (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) which makes it okay.

Carry on.
 
Thinking back, I remember this case and thought it needed a bump since its last mention was over a month ago.
The docket file says this case was argued on 3 November 2004. Does anyone know how the arguments went or how the Justices appeared to lean?

Kharn
 
The 2nd Amendment was implemented to protect a natural, pre-existing, universal right to keep and bear arms (likewise the entire BoR). Small sought to exercise that right, albeit in the most remarkably anti-RKBA country in the world. As a result of his attempt to exercise his natural, pre-existing, universal right to keep and bear arms - with no apparent intent to cause harm - he was, remarkably, under USA law subsequently denied the very same right, which is explicitly protected in the 2nd Amendment.

Is there a right which you consider so basic, so universal, that you would exercise it anywhere - including countries where that right was expressly forbidden? and would it make sense for the one country that actively protects that right to deny it to you because you attempted to exercise it where it was forbidden?


Ctdonath,

So if I excercise my universally guaranteed RKBA in NYC, are you saying since this country is so great at recognizing that RKBA that I won't be arrested or convicted of any wrong doing "in any court?"
 
So if I excercise my universally guaranteed RKBA in NYC, are you saying since this country is so great at recognizing that RKBA that I won't be arrested or convicted of any wrong doing "in any court?" -duckslayer

Is NYC immune from a citizen's class action? Is the State of New York? You already know that NY is in violation of the 2nd Amendment via the 14th. You may have to get arrested, be prosecuted, and present such a defense in order to qualify the case in Federal Court. Can you afford it?

I don't know the legalities, but you might be able to go directly to Federal Court as their original jurisdiction. Will they hear the case? Good luck, but if we do nothing, whining is not allowed.
 
OK....Assuming for purposes of argument you are talking about CURRENT servicemen smuggling in firearms, then yes, they do so they are scum, no matter how brave they are or how many medals they have. Thats becasue it is CLEARLY AND UNABASHEDLY unlawful but also CLEARLY violative of clearly stated muilitary regulation.

Short version: Break a law and you are scum. Any law, whatever the reason. Which, of course, makes everyone here, including the...person...who posted the above, scum. At least we're all in good company, eh? :rolleyes:
 
Most likely the suit will give Justice Ginsburg and like minded benchmates a chance to incorporate international law in interpreting US law. Senator Specter of Scottish Law fame will no doubt take particular interest in SCOTUS' deliberations.
 
Watch, SCOTUS will rule that since Small was not smuggling the arms to a militia of one of the several states, then he had no RKBA in Japan and therefore, considering the whole of the circumstances, it was a "reasonable" felony in Japan and therefore it is "reasonable" to base his legal status here in the US under such a ruling.

Ha! Just watch! SCOTUS could sneak this in right under the noses of the NRA, GOA, etc.

Hang on!

Philosophically speaking however, do I have a right to voilate any law in any other country that is in violation of our Bill of Rights, our Constitution, or our statutes, and by doing so, the US or any of its several States should not consider any such violations in any proceedings here?

Very interesting question.
 
Gunlaws.com article
SUPREME COURT HEARS ITS 93RD GUN CASE
Alan Korwin
Nov. 23, 2004

Does Conviction in Japan Kill an American's Rights?

With Chief Justice William Rehnquist absent for medical reasons, but reserving his right to rule on the case, the High Court heard oral arguments on Nov. 3 in the case of a man convicted of falsifying a 4473 form -- the federal document required when buying guns from licensed gun dealers in America.

Small v. U.S.will be the Supreme Court's 61st gun decision since the often-cited Miller case of 1937. Widely believed to have been virtually silent about guns, six years of research recently yielded Supreme Court Gun Cases, a book by Phoenix-based Bloomfield Press, which uncovered 92 gun cases the Court has handled in its history. Small is the first case since the Dec., 2002 decision in Bean v. U.S., in which the Court denied restoration of the right to keep and bear arms on technical grounds, for a Texas man arrested on questionable charges in Mexico.

Gary Sherwood Small, a Pennsylvania resident, purchased a handgun from a dealer in 1998, and was indicted in 2000 for denying any felony conviction, on his federal paperwork. His lawyer, Paul D. Boas, argues that a conviction in Japan for a gun violation is not within the law's meaning of a conviction "in any court." Whether Congress meant to include foreign courts is unclear, and the word "any" has been interpreted both narrowly and broadly in the past. Justice Ginsburg said during the hearing, "When Congress legislates, it usually is thinking only about the United States," and that foreign convictions are beyond its intent.

Whether Small will lose his right to arms, from a Japanese conviction that might be characterized here as "kangaroo" justice*, will be decided in 2005. It is the latest test of the American right to arms, by a High Court that has recognized those rights for more than 200 years. Small's brief is on our website under "New Stuff."

*Small was arrested at a Japanese airport not in possession of any alleged evidence, held without bail, denied due process, interrogated by police for 25 days straight without a lawyer, prosecution relied on sworn statements with no cross examination or witnesses present, his Japanese lawyer barely spoke English and mainly tried to get him to confess (which he refused to do), he was brought to trial without a jury, his silence to outrageous questioning was held as proof of guilt, more. See the brief, it will shock you.
FreeRepublic discussion on the article

Hmmm, interesting quote from Justice Ginsburg...

Kharn
 
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