The GF and I argued about CCW'ing

[kd7nqb]

Stipulated facts

1. My girl and I both regularly carry and are active shooters

2. While we do both CCW we both JUST turned 21 this summer and got our CHL's so we both admit CCW'ing is not our expertise yet

We are in the car today and I told her I bought a box of Federal Hydra Shocks 135grain for my M&P. She asked "What did you have in their before" I reply, that I was being cheap and just keeping hand inspected WWB in the gun since its what I had in the house.

She immediately was rather upset with me, she said that due to the risk of over penetration carrying FMJ rounds for SD was irresponsible. I agree that the better personal protection rounds are better for CCW but my preference is more based on higher levels of reliability and higher standards in the ammo manufacturing process.

So I ask for THR's input.

Is it irresponsible to not use highly frangible ammo in a SD gun.

 

[General Geoff]

Work on a compromise, such as Federal Expanding Full Metal Jacket (EFMJ) rounds.

 

[Mannix]

While it's best NOT to over-penetrate, understand that in an adrenaline charged situation, it's not very likely that you will hit every time. So whats worse for those around you, the hydra shocks you're missing with, or the FMJs you're missing with and the couple that might make it out of the guy? I personally think the difference is blown out of proportion by alot of folks(if it even exists).

 

[kd7nqb]

good call on the argument about missing, not one I thought of.

 

[Zangetsu]

She's got a point, but you don't want an under penetrating round either. For civilian purposes, I'd go with some type of JHP because chances are I'm not going to be shooting at anyone behind walls or wearing body armor, but I do want to make sure that the person I hit is going to get hit hard. For a self defense pistol load, I like the 200gr JHP +P .45 ACP that I use because it does exactly what I want it to; it shouldn't over penetrate (much), but will leave a big hole wherever it goes. Likewise, a regular FMJ .45 ACP probably won't have a whole lotta penetrating power anyway. In the end, as with so, so many questions about firearms in general, I think the best answer is.....get ready for it......



It depends

 

[Fast Frank]

Might want to take note of this...

If she thinks she can tell you what kind of bullets to put in your pistol before you are married to her, how is she going to act when she owns you?

Just a reminder from a guy that made a similar mistake with my first wife.

 

[redbearde]

Is it irresponsible to not use highly frangible ammo in a SD gun?

I don't use it. If I have to shoot someone, then I prefer as much penetration as I can get. I want my assailant bleeding from two holes instead of one.....for each round I put in/through him.

Know your target and what's behind it. Don't assume a round you fire -won't- go all the way through.

One thing I personally would NOT want is for some extremely fat fellow to be able to take 10 to 12 inches of penetration and my rounds not get to the important parts. Or worse...using some of those frangible rounds I've seen advertised as specifically not over-penetrating...and then they don't go farther than a few inches in before disapperating. I'm sure it would sting, but I would prefer something more damaging for my self-defense.

ymmv with that.

Until someone presents me with evidence of an epidemic of through-and-throughs that actually kill a few small children, I think of this "over-penetration" business the same as I do about using a cell-phone while I fill my gas tank or the threats that I will drop dead of my neighbor smoking a cigarette. In his house.

Incidentally,

Aside from within a warzone, do any of you know of an actual incident where a pistol round went through one man, kept on going, and killed someone else across the street? Is it not simply poor aim by the shooter when a by-stander gets hit?

 

[Guitargod1985]

Aside from within a warzone, do any of you know of an actual incident where a pistol round went through one man, kept on going, and killed someone else across the street?

Never heard of it.

Is it not simply poor aim by the shooter when a by-stander gets hit?

Not necessarily. I would think it is quite possible for a bullet to impact a bone at an angle that would cause it to skip or ricochet, producing an entirely different trajectory. Now, would it still retainenough kinetic energy to pose a substantial risk to another human? Doubtful, but then that depends on the round as well.

 

[Harvster]

practice drill

Offensive post removed

 

[jeepmor]

"Well honey, since we haven't been in any shootouts just yet, don't you worry your pretty little head, it's not an issue anymore now is it."

Use that yes dear now and get used to it if you think you want to marry this gal. It'll save you more grief than you know, trust me, I've been with my girl since I was your age.

 

[MarkDido]

practice drill

Yes dear......sorry.......yes dear. Repeat.

This will do more for your health and well being than anything ammo related.

Sage advise.

I got married in the Broward County Courthose 10 years ago.

The clerk that performed the ceremony (female) pulled me off to the side and had me repeat "The Marriage Mantra" 3 times before she would perform the ceremony.

The mantra is:

Yes Dear
I'm sorry dear
It's all my fault dear

I have forgotten this mantra several times over the past 10 years
And I have the scars to prove it!

 

[Fly320s]

kd7nqb,

Which ammo is more reliable in your gun?

If they are even on that point, which one is more accurate (consistant) from your gun?

If they are still even, go with the Hydra Shoks, just in case.

 

[Wopasaurus]

Luckily you have an M&P, so theoretically it should handle any kinda jhp that you feed it.

 

[Correia]

Guys, keep it on The High Road.

This thread has absolutely nothing to do, at all, with the fact that it is his girlfriend or that she is female.

I would make fun of his ammo choice also, but that is only from looking at hundreds of autopsy photos of people shot with various things.

For example:

If she thinks she can tell you what kind of bullets to put in your pistol before you are married to her, how is she going to act when she owns you?

Just a reminder from a guy that made a similar mistake with my first wife.

People disagree. And in this case the original poster's ammo selection goes against what most professionals would recommend also. From the very brief post, you can somehow assume negative things about the OP's girlfriend because why? She's got ovaries?

Yes dear......sorry.......yes dear. Repeat.

Yes, because we know that women are inherantly irrational, and incapable of logical thought, (even though she's young, and has already made the decision to carry a firearm) so you should never debate with a woman. Give me a break.

"Well honey, since we haven't been in any shootouts just yet, don't you worry your pretty little head, it's not an issue anymore now is it."

Yep, because everybody on a testosterone soaked gunboard knows that them feeble wimin folk are too pathetic to think about complicated things like wound ballistics. Hell, I'm surprised you allow her to carry a gun. She might break a nail.

And we wonder once again why only 1% of our posters here are women, because we manage to chase most of them off, and why we struggle in the culture war.

 

[BridgeWalker]

Corriea, can I hug you?

 

[Correia]

And back on topic, nobody that shoots people for a living chooses to carry FMJ when hollow points are available.

Overpenetration through tissue is not the big deal, but if you miss under stress, an FMJ will travel through more building materials than a JHP.

But more importantly, JHPs when they work as designed, make a bigger hole. Bigger hole = more likely to hit something important that is going to bleed. That is pretty much it. If the bullet fails to expand, then you just shot them with an FMJ anyway.

As for not penetrating enough through really fat guys, most modern defensive hollow points are designed and loaded hot enough to still get plenty of penetration. Unless you're in a gunfight against somebody who's basically a land whale, and you shoot them at a really bad angle, you're still going to reach vitals. So if you get into a fight with Shamu, just shoot him in his head.

No matter what, keep in mind that all handguns suck relative to rifles and shotguns anyway, so be ready to engage every target with multiple rounds until they cease being a threat. Since my handgun sucks at stopping people quickly, I might as well carry the most effective round I can.

If you're worried about reliability, the M&P should run fine with any premium hollowpoint. Buy a box. Shoot it. If it works. Buy another. You're good to go. And most premium defensive hollowpoints are built to a higher spec that Winchester White Box, which is basically cheap plinking ammo.

 

[TX1911fan]

Correia, two excellent posts. The ONLY time the "yes dear" should be used is during wedding preparations (you do NOT want to debate that kind of stuff). Otherwise, it is entirely appropriate to engage your SO in reasoned, respectful and lively debate. I wouldn't have married anyone incapable of such, and niether would she.

 

[ZeSpectre]

DISCLAIMER: I've never had to shoot a person (Thank you God, hope I never have to!).

However I have worked with several who have and have seen some of the results first hand. Let's just skip over complete "misses" for the moment and focus on "hits". The bottom line for me is that bullets do really weird things once they impact flesh and bone and yes, it seems that FMJ does tend to just keep going.

I have seen two .357 Magnum rounds that were fired point blank, passed through the torso of the target, exited out the back, and embedded in a heavy oak door. Both were JHP rounds. I am fully confident that those rounds WOULD have also penetrated the door and gone into the lobby beyond had they been FMJ rounds.

I was also told (by an EMT) about a man who coughed hard and spit up a FMJ round from a smaller caliber gun (I believe it was a .380 but honestly I'm not sure I remember correctly). the round had glanced off a rib (shattering it) and lost enough energy to stop inside his lung. The medic believed that had the round not hit bone it would have just kept going through.

I've also witnessed a LSWC round from a .357 and a .40 S&W slam through far more material than I ever expected.

Finally, the nastiest FMJ I know of. The 7.62x25 round out of a CZ-52. Until you shoot one at some stuff you just CAN'T understand what that round will penetrate! Wolf JHP out of the same gun behaves well dumping energy into the target and then stopping.

 

[Harvster]

Wow Correia

Yes, because we know that women are inherantly irrational, and incapable of logical thought, (even though she's young, and has already made the decision to carry a firearm) so you should never debate with a woman. Give me a break.

My comment was quite obviously(or so I thought) a simple jest about being married in general. How you construe that into some sort of attack on the female intelligence is beyond me. And, let me tell you something in full disclosure. I am married to a smart,strong, woman with a PhD. She works and provides for our family while I stay home raising our children. So yeah, I'm all about how weak, illogical, and helpless women are.

 

[tinygnat219]

Man,
Does your wife have a sister? I'd LOVE to have that kind of argument with my wife. It shows you married a good woman.

 

[Correia]

How you construe that into some sort of attack on the female intelligence is beyond me.

Oh, I construe it quite easily. Simple sarcasm doesn't always convey in the written form, combined with the fact that we've had literally thousands of posts, exactly like yours (look a couple posts above yours for example) that convey that exact same thought, only they're 100% serious.

Until you call them on it, because then, of course, they were only joking.

 

[Zundfolge]

When I read about the poor saps that come in here after a fight with their SO about the mere possession of firearms, let alone ccw, let alone ammo choice ... well kd7nqb should count himself among the lucky ones


Anyway, I believe her concerns about FMJ are overstated, but still basically right ... years of study of wound ballistics shows that JHPs just work better. But you were no great menace to society by packing FMJ. Would she have been happier that you left your gun at home because you didn't have the "right" ammo?

Although to be honest, back when I carried a Makarov I carried FMJs because I was concerned that 9x18mak didn't have the umph to reliably expand JHPs (and the only reason I have JHPs in my wife's KelTec P3AT is because we got a couple boxes free with the gun).


Actually a bigger problem than over penetration from FMJ (especially low grade "practice ammo" FMJ) is the issue of reliability... I've had WWB (and other cheap practice FMG) not go bang at the range. NEVER had any higher quality JHP not function.

The loudest sound in a gunfight is a *click* when there was supposed to be a *bang!*

 

[dasmi]

She's probably right. Count yourself lucky that you get to have an argument like that with her.
I keep WWB FMJs in my Glock 17, mostly because that's what I always shoot in it for practice, and I know that they work reliably. When I have time and money, I'll pick a good defense round and shoot a bunch of it to be sure it works.

 

[Trebor]

I'm with your GF.

While I wouldn't necessarily call it "irresponsible" to load FMJ, I think a good modern premium JHP load is a better choice.

I never recommend Winchester White Box as a defensive load. It does not use a "low flash" propellent and the QC is not up to the standards of the premium defensive loads.

 

[Wes Janson]

If you're having a fight with your GF over what defensive load you're carrying, you've found yourself a damn rare catch, and should appreciate that.

So if you get into a fight with Shamu, just shoot him in his head.

I forsee that making it into someone's sig sooner or later.