The GF and I argued about CCW'ing

[Beatnik]

Unless you're in a gunfight against somebody who's basically a land whale, and you shoot them at a really bad angle, you're still going to reach vitals. So if you get into a fight with Shamu, just shoot him in his head.

This is better than the woman comments?


I'm really interested in knowing why FMJ is a military mandate. If high-tech ammo is really so much more effective, why don't we pull out of the 1899 Hague Convention agreements?

 

[Zundfolge]

If high-tech ammo is really so much more effective, why don't we pull out of the 1899 Hague Convention agreements?

Because the Hague Convention isn't about effectiveness, its about "cruelty" and frankly the more effective any round is going to be, the more damage its going to do therefore the more "cruel" it is.

 

[Correia]

Beatnik, I was responding to the poster that talked about how he wanted FMJ because it penetrated more. More response was that unless you're fighting somebody really really really really big (i.e. land whale) that's a moot point. You can take that to mean fat if you like. It can also be muscle. Either way, we're talking about a very thick individual.

Even then, if you take a really large man (like myself for example) and you're shooting a hollowpoint that is designed to penetrate 12", there is almost no angle on me, even passing through my arm, armpit, and then into my chest cavity, where 12" won't reach my vitals. The thing to keep in mind is that eithr FMJ or JHP will probably deflect when it hits bones, so there's no guarentee, so shoot them as many times as you have to.

I'm really interested in knowing why FMJ is a military mandate. If high-tech ammo is really so much more effective, why don't we pull out of the 1899 Hague Convention agreements?

A better question would be, name a single group that regularly has to shoot people with handguns, that isn't bound by law or treaty to use FMJ, that chooses to do so?

 

[Geronimo45]

I'm really interested in knowing why FMJ is a military mandate. If high-tech ammo is really so much more effective, why don't we pull out of the 1899 Hague Convention agreements?

'Cuz military ammo is usually general purpose. Sometimes you need to shoot through walls, sometimes glass... FMJ does a tad better than HP. Probably better at anti-armor stuff, too.

As per the OP: aren't a lot of current HP rounds designed to go in one end and out the other? Explicitly made to 'overpenetrate' to cause maximum blood loss? The purpose of HP as sold to the voters by PDs is that it won't overpenetrate and kill half the city. The real purpose is a better chance of stopping the target. The reduced chance of overpenetration is incidental.

 

[chieftain]

RE: Through Shoots,

Aside from within a warzone, do any of you know of an actual incident where a pistol round went through one man, kept on going, and killed someone else across the street? Is it not simply poor aim by the shooter when a by-stander gets hit?

I have seen through shoots personally in military combat. Several times.

I am not going to look it up. But the year before the NYPD went from FMJ to JHP's they had documented 42 through shoots.

IIRC 31 of them hit other cops. That is why NYPD finally went to JHP's in their 9mm Glock's, S&W's, and SIG's. They haven't had that problem since.

Facts, the argument ender.

Go figure.

Fred

PS If your platform will not function reliably with Hollow Point bullets, and you can legally use Hollow point bullets, get your platform (gun) fixed or replace it.

F

 

[WAID]

Ha, consider yourself lucky, I was looking at a thread with a scoped Ruger mk II and my girlfriend asked me why you need sights on a handgun, aren't they just for killing people? This ones a bit of a project but she seems to be coming around and she actually seems to understand when I explain things to her. I did find out that there was some previous event that made her rather uncomfortable with handguns.

 

[XDKingslayer]

Just switch out her carry rounds for blanks to get even...

 

[roscoe]

Yeah I had a similar argument with my wife last week over whether .300 or .338 was more appropriate for long-range sniper work. Dames . . .

 

[sm]

My advice, screw arguments!
Arguments are not healthy, and for damn sure not healthy for relationships and life is too damn short anyway.

Hold hands, go to a gun store, each buy some boxes of Ammunition, and go shoot.
Shoot some dirt in a box, objective being the guns running including with magazines and shooting POA/POI, and hitting what aiming at.

Pick up brass, hold hands leaving range.
Since you shot your budgets, but know what works in respective guns and how deep they went shooting the highly scientific Shoot Mud/Dirt Test , stop on the way home and get some chocolate, and then continue on home.
Get under the covers and make Whoopie.

Beats the hell out of teh Intraweb and arguing over ammunition.

 

[ozwyn]

If you're having a ccw argument and the worst of it is choice of ammo, you still have it pretty f--king good. Go back and read all the ended relationship threads due to anti-gun sig. others out there.

I mean, it is not like it was a caliber argument or heaven forbid, a anti-gun agument.

count yourself luck to have a good, reasonable, logical argument over ammo choice.

Personally i think Hollow point ammunition should be preferred over fmj, but that's just my .02

I mean, you could have countered by saying "well, I was counting on you to outshoot me if it was needed anyway"

 

[yesit'sloaded]

I have a problem along the same lines. My girlfriend refuses to shoot anything that doesn't start with 4

 

[redbearde]

Correia, thanks for the information.

Chieftain, I have heard such things many times. I've even heard the ubiquitous, "he fired, it went through the perp, bounced off the brick wall, and came back and wounded the officer who fired". I am just as likely to believe it's NYPD's lousy shooting instead of through-shoots. I would appreciate a source, if you don't mind.

 

[sixgunner455]

sm -

 

[Chuhhuniban]

In several forums to which I belong, this sort of discussion comes up (and up, and up, and up). The best answer I have ever found was the signature line of a guy named Erich over in (I think) 10MM Talk, to wit: "Shot placement is king, adequate penetration is queen, everything else is angels dancing on the heads of pins."

As suggested several times, try several brands/forms of ammunition until you find the one that works, all the time, every time in your pistol.

Then, practice and practice and practice, in good light, bad light, no light, near, far and in between. Then every few weeks, practice some more.

Do it together with your GF/Wife/SO and you'll both be safer and have fun besides.

Jeez, guys, give it a rest....

 

[Cougfan2]

Use that yes dear now and get used to it if you think you want to marry this gal. It'll save you more grief than you know, trust me, I've been with my girl since I was your age.

That's what I tell me son regarding his girlfriend. The two most important words in a relationship........."Yes, Dear".

 

[MrPeter]

I'm really interested in knowing why FMJ is a military mandate. If high-tech ammo is really so much more effective, why don't we pull out of the 1899 Hague Convention agreements?

'Cuz military ammo is usually general purpose. Sometimes you need to shoot through walls, sometimes glass... FMJ does a tad better than HP. Probably better at anti-armor stuff, too.

"The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions."

"...it is especially forbidden -

To employ arms, projectiles, or material{sic} calculated to cause unnecessary suffering;"

but...

"...expanding point ammunition is legally permissible in counterterrorist operations not involving the engagement of the armed forces of another State."


Dunno how accurate this is... if someone knows more about the Geneva Convention or the Hague Convention IV of 1907, which I think expired(?) go ahead and post here, I don't have time to do more research.

Oh, and did anyone think that the answer to these questions involve price? FMJ's are much easier/cheaper to make.



And lastly, to the OP, if you have a problem with her, I'll take her. I'll say, "Yes, dear" and mean it, because I do believe loading FMJ's, especially +P FMJ's, and ESPECIALLY 9mm Para +P is very irrisponsible and ineffective.

Is she tall? I like 'em tall...

 

[gunsmith]

Wow!

If you're having a fight with your GF over what defensive load you're carrying, you've found yourself a damn rare catch, and should appreciate that.

Quoted for accuracy... my old GF would argue about whether I "needed" a gun to go to the movies and stuff like that.
She also got angry at me for saying things like "I can't speak freely about politics because my GF gets angry" to company during dinner....
I told my old GF that I was a gun nut before we started dating, she said it was "fine" ....it was only fine for about 2 months.

 

[the naked prophet]

My wife carries .40 flat-point FMJ in her S&W M&P because it's the only ammo so far that's been reliable in it. And it's the only gun that fits her tiny little hands that's been reliable at all.

We've tried all kinds of JHP in it, to no avail. She's comfortable with flat point FMJ, and she's carrying a gun. I think she'll do well enough.

She does trust my word on ammo selection, but I told her that if it's not relialble, she shouldn't carry it. Until we can find one that works, she'll continue to carry her FMJ.

 

[benEzra]

We are in the car today and I told her I bought a box of Federal Hydra Shocks 135grain for my M&P. She asked "What did you have in their before" I reply, that I was being cheap and just keeping hand inspected WWB in the gun since its what I had in the house.

The only failure I have EVER had with my carry gun, in the course of >2000 rounds through it, was a round of Winchester white box target ammo. Looked perfect externally, but the priming cup apparently had no priming compound in it.

 

[Green Lantern]

When I read about the poor saps that come in here after a fight with their SO about the mere possession of firearms, let alone ccw, let alone ammo choice ... well kd7nqb should count himself among the lucky ones

If you're having a fight with your GF over what defensive load you're carrying, you've found yourself a damn rare catch, and should appreciate that.

+1!

As for the argument - "irresponsible" might be a bit harsh, but I tend to fall into the 'fear of over-penetration' camp, and only carry JHPs. Though in a smaller gun, like a .32 or even a .380, I might consider it.

FWIW, I shoot lots of WWB 9mm, and have NEVER had a 'dud,' though past results are NO guarantee of future performance!

My G19 carry load is either Silvertips, Gold Dots and even sometimes (but not so much anymore) WWB FMJs.

I do admit that others here make some good points FOR using FMJs - but all things considered, I'll just keep my hollowpoints and practice 'head shots' more.

 

[Wes Janson]

A better question would be, name a single group that regularly has to shoot people with handguns, that isn't bound by law or treaty to use FMJ, that chooses to do so?

Gang members? ('cause they're cheap and buy at Wallyworld)

 

[TimboKhan]

I gotta be honest, anybody that calls me a "land whale" to my face is going to get a flipper to the jaw. What, you think us fat guys are indestructible? We aren't Cape Buffaloes, gentlemen. As Correia said, modern bullets are loaded plenty hot enough to zip right through us. In my previously non-fat life I was still a pretty big guy, and I was shot with a 9mm FMJ round. It went through me like a hot knife through butter, and I can't imagine that the same wouldn't happen today.

 

[redbearde]

Timbo, the issue to me is would the JHP do the same thing while expanding and not penetrating as far. My thinking is that it wouldn't do so as much. Shrug. hot-knife-through-butter would be the plan. I'm a rather large guy, m'self. well......wide. I'm as tall as a point guard and as heavy as a defensive end.

It's easier to not get upset by the land-whale comments - it'd suck to bust a flipper on a jaw. It's even easier if you use them yourself. For instance, I was thinking of responding with, "fear not! I don't like to beach myself because I don't need folks trying tp push me into the water..."

 

[Correia]

I only weigh 300 pounds, so I'm probably not a land whale. Maybe a land manatee though...

 

[ozwyn]

Somehow, somewhere there is a joke in this thread about a man going into a gun store and buying hollowpoint ammo for nookie value. Unintended consequences of a different kind?