dragongoddess
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Ever consider a Walker for conceal carry
The Good old Walker
- Thread starter Desert Scorpion
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J.T. Gerrity
Member
Walkers were designed to use a 200+ grain "elongated ball" with ~ 40 grains powder. Colt issued the pistols to the army with two types of bullet molds: one single cavity mold; one six cavity mold. Both were for the "elongated ball". He did not issue a mold for a round ball, and in fact both he and Walker were concerned that only the "elongated ball" be used in the pistol.
Read "Colt's own Records", a collection of letters regarding the design and manufacture of the Walker. Very interesting reading.
If you want to use one of these pistols "the way they were meant to be used", and the "way they were designed", then you would use a 200 grain bullet with 40-50 grains. Not a round ball. Not 60 grains. Using 45 grains of BP is not "downloading"; it's using the pistol the way it was meant to be used.
Read "Colt's own Records", a collection of letters regarding the design and manufacture of the Walker. Very interesting reading.
If you want to use one of these pistols "the way they were meant to be used", and the "way they were designed", then you would use a 200 grain bullet with 40-50 grains. Not a round ball. Not 60 grains. Using 45 grains of BP is not "downloading"; it's using the pistol the way it was meant to be used.
Blindshooter
Member
Has anybody use the R & D drop in with the walker?
BlindShooter
BlindShooter
This was in The Whitneyville Walker Colt by Lt.Col. Robert D. Whiting III Regarding the first or close to the first shipment received at Vera Cruz:
214 Pistols- Colt Patent
218 Powder Flasks
230 Combination tools (cone wrench, spring vice, and screwdriver)
16 Rings for spring vices
22 Sets extra springs ***
8 Sets lock work
8 sets of 6 cones
8 sets screws
22 bullet moulds casting one ball*
4 bullet moulds casting 6 balls
50,000 percussion caps
1240 pounds bar lead
200 pounds rifle powder **
*“Ball” appears to be a generic term for the conical bullets used in the Walker
** The Army pistols proof tested the Walkers with a bullet over a full charge of fffg powder.
***Note that the quartermaster believed eight sets of lock work to be sufficient to keep this shipment of pistols in operation but ordered almost three times that number of spring sets.
I looked all over for pictures of the original bullet bullet but have not been able to find any. I have had to be satisfied with the one's dropped from the pedersoli mould
The Lee 200 grain is shaped differently. It has a small diameter heal and is easy to load in the walker and other replicas. We can never know the exact performance they got with the orignal powder /bullet combinations ( and lacking chronographs, neither could they.) but here are some fun figures I got with mine:
200 Grain Lee Bullet
40 goex FFFg 927 40
45 Swiss FFFg 1074 33
45Gr/Vol Pyrodex P 1087 47
214 Pistols- Colt Patent
218 Powder Flasks
230 Combination tools (cone wrench, spring vice, and screwdriver)
16 Rings for spring vices
22 Sets extra springs ***
8 Sets lock work
8 sets of 6 cones
8 sets screws
22 bullet moulds casting one ball*
4 bullet moulds casting 6 balls
50,000 percussion caps
1240 pounds bar lead
200 pounds rifle powder **
*“Ball” appears to be a generic term for the conical bullets used in the Walker
** The Army pistols proof tested the Walkers with a bullet over a full charge of fffg powder.
***Note that the quartermaster believed eight sets of lock work to be sufficient to keep this shipment of pistols in operation but ordered almost three times that number of spring sets.
I looked all over for pictures of the original bullet bullet but have not been able to find any. I have had to be satisfied with the one's dropped from the pedersoli mould
The Lee 200 grain is shaped differently. It has a small diameter heal and is easy to load in the walker and other replicas. We can never know the exact performance they got with the orignal powder /bullet combinations ( and lacking chronographs, neither could they.) but here are some fun figures I got with mine:
200 Grain Lee Bullet
40 goex FFFg 927 40
45 Swiss FFFg 1074 33
45Gr/Vol Pyrodex P 1087 47
From an old Colt pamphlet: "FFG black powder is best for the large and medium-size revolvers, and FFFG for the small pocket models, but any grade that is available will work reasonably well."
My questions(s): what did they use "back in the day" for Walkers?
Would a "full chamber" of FFG have the same potency as one of FFFG?
Also, in a "memorandum of an agreement made this 4th day of January 1847 between Samuel Colt, inventor of Colts Patent repeating pistols- and Samuel H. Walker Capt in the U.S. Navy..."
(drop down a paragraph)
"The barrels to be nine inches long and Rifled: made of the best hammered cast steel; and of a bore suited to carry fifty round balls to the pound; and with strength sufficient for firing an elongated ball, of 32 to the pound..."
My questions(s): what did they use "back in the day" for Walkers?
Would a "full chamber" of FFG have the same potency as one of FFFG?
Also, in a "memorandum of an agreement made this 4th day of January 1847 between Samuel Colt, inventor of Colts Patent repeating pistols- and Samuel H. Walker Capt in the U.S. Navy..."
(drop down a paragraph)
"The barrels to be nine inches long and Rifled: made of the best hammered cast steel; and of a bore suited to carry fifty round balls to the pound; and with strength sufficient for firing an elongated ball, of 32 to the pound..."
When they ordered "rifle powder", I assumed they were talking about ffg but Whiting says that it was fffg. fifty to the pound would be 140 grains and 32 would be 218. The first definately does correspond with a round ball. Here are some 19th century colt specifications:
".44 Dragoon 41 Grains Unspecified Powder and 146 Grain Ball or 219 Grain Bullet
.44 1860 27 Grains Unspecified Powder 212 Grain Conical Bullet or 146-Grain Ball.
.44 Walker 40 to 50 Grains Unspecified Powder 212 Grain Conical Bullet.
19th Century references often do not specify powder types but those that do recommend FFG for all except the small pocket models.
Granulation is achieved by grating the powder through screens of specified sizes. Manufacturer’s standards regarding proper granulation are highly variable.
Screen sizes:
Fg 12 –16 squares per inch. Ffg 30- 50 squares per inch. FFFg 50+ squares/inch
I I don't know that you could really get 50 grains under a 212 grain bullet into the walker chambers. The bullet weights and charges used in various loadings and paper charges are widely variable. I have a couple of civil war pick up dragoon bullets they weigh 240 and 246 grains.
Guns Magazine April 1956 Page 11- " Grandpa's Muzzle Loader Comes Back" William C.L ThompsonColt .44 Dragoon 220 Grain Conical and 145 Grain Ball
40 Grains FFg and FFFg
Colt .44 Army 1860 200 Grain Conical and 140 Grain Ball
28 Grains FFg and FFFg
Navy .36 1851 & 61 140 Grain Conical and 82 Grain Ball
18 & 20 Grains FFg and FFFg
Pocket .31 1849 77-Grain Conical and 50 Grain Ball
13-14 Grains FFg and FFFg ( This load is suspect. It will not fit in the chamber of either the Colt or Remington Pocket revolvers.-mec)
It appears that happiness lies in not being too obsessive about this subject.
".44 Dragoon 41 Grains Unspecified Powder and 146 Grain Ball or 219 Grain Bullet
.44 1860 27 Grains Unspecified Powder 212 Grain Conical Bullet or 146-Grain Ball.
.44 Walker 40 to 50 Grains Unspecified Powder 212 Grain Conical Bullet.
19th Century references often do not specify powder types but those that do recommend FFG for all except the small pocket models.
Granulation is achieved by grating the powder through screens of specified sizes. Manufacturer’s standards regarding proper granulation are highly variable.
Screen sizes:
Fg 12 –16 squares per inch. Ffg 30- 50 squares per inch. FFFg 50+ squares/inch
I I don't know that you could really get 50 grains under a 212 grain bullet into the walker chambers. The bullet weights and charges used in various loadings and paper charges are widely variable. I have a couple of civil war pick up dragoon bullets they weigh 240 and 246 grains.
Guns Magazine April 1956 Page 11- " Grandpa's Muzzle Loader Comes Back" William C.L ThompsonColt .44 Dragoon 220 Grain Conical and 145 Grain Ball
40 Grains FFg and FFFg
Colt .44 Army 1860 200 Grain Conical and 140 Grain Ball
28 Grains FFg and FFFg
Navy .36 1851 & 61 140 Grain Conical and 82 Grain Ball
18 & 20 Grains FFg and FFFg
Pocket .31 1849 77-Grain Conical and 50 Grain Ball
13-14 Grains FFg and FFFg ( This load is suspect. It will not fit in the chamber of either the Colt or Remington Pocket revolvers.-mec)
It appears that happiness lies in not being too obsessive about this subject.
"It appears that happiness lies in not being too obsessive about this subject."
(how do you highlight quotes on these pages?)
You are correct - that's why a few posts back I said, "This is all in fun, right?"
But it sure beats talking politics, sports, or health.
(how do you highlight quotes on these pages?)
You are correct - that's why a few posts back I said, "This is all in fun, right?"
But it sure beats talking politics, sports, or health.
.38 Special
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Dunno about you, but none of my Walkers were made in 1847. And according to the instructions that came with my Armi San Marco version (dunno what happened to the Uberti paperwork) I should load it with "approx. 55 gr. of size FFFg Black powder". IOW, "it was meant to be used" with full loads.
I'll fax you a copy of the instruction manual.
No, I'm incredibly outraged.
.38 Special
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But here's the bottom line: Somebody come up with an example of a "name brand" Walker repro that has been damaged or worn out by firing with full loads.
I've had three, two of which have been fired several thousand times apiece with full loads and are still mechanically sound.
I've had three, two of which have been fired several thousand times apiece with full loads and are still mechanically sound.
hildo
Member
Is there a difference in felt recoil between 45 grain / conical and 60 grain / roundball?
Have never shot conicals.
Have never shot conicals.
bates has one or two of those colt reissue dragoons just like the one in the picture. He hasn't fired them.
I haven't been able to get a walker to kick much at all even with 60 grain charges. It does put out a fairly tremendous amount of smoke, fire and general loudness though.
I haven't been able to get a walker to kick much at all even with 60 grain charges. It does put out a fairly tremendous amount of smoke, fire and general loudness though.
I made the remark about this being all in fun simply because I got into a pissing contest with a moron a few months ago on this forum, in which I started out joking and he ended up threatening me and my family.
That is not the case here, I know. I doubt, even in your rage, that you'll threaten me.
My Walker was not made in 1847. I wish it was. But, it is 1847 technology, and they were made to fight Mexicans and Indians....period. No apostrophe. If you want to go by the instructions provided by the Italians as far as suggested loads, that's fine...I think they said in my 1860 .44 that I should use 12 - 15 grs of FFFG. If they're wrong once, they're wrong forever in my mind. I revert back to what Colt intended for the revolvers.:banghead:
That is not the case here, I know. I doubt, even in your rage, that you'll threaten me.
My Walker was not made in 1847. I wish it was. But, it is 1847 technology, and they were made to fight Mexicans and Indians....period. No apostrophe. If you want to go by the instructions provided by the Italians as far as suggested loads, that's fine...I think they said in my 1860 .44 that I should use 12 - 15 grs of FFFG. If they're wrong once, they're wrong forever in my mind. I revert back to what Colt intended for the revolvers.:banghead:
You'll love this one...
Traditions pamphlet Recommended Revolver Loads:
.44 Colt Walker and Dragoons .454 round (Min) 25/3f
(Max) 40/ 3f
.454 conical (Min) 20/3f
(Max) 35/ 3f
Uberti pamphlet: Target 22 - 30 roundball diameter -.454
19 - 25 conical bullet - .454
Uberti: "The full maximum charge is seldom used except for hunting or "showing off."
I kid you not...
Traditions pamphlet Recommended Revolver Loads:
.44 Colt Walker and Dragoons .454 round (Min) 25/3f
(Max) 40/ 3f
.454 conical (Min) 20/3f
(Max) 35/ 3f
Uberti pamphlet: Target 22 - 30 roundball diameter -.454
19 - 25 conical bullet - .454
Uberti: "The full maximum charge is seldom used except for hunting or "showing off."
I kid you not...
Has anybody use the R & D drop in with the walker?
BlindShooter
I was wondering the same thing.
I'm thinking of getting one of these for myself for Chistmas. I used to have a kentucky pistol when I was a kid and I want to get back into shooting. (it's been a LOOONG time). This gun looks like a hoot to shoot.
so anyone try one of those R & D drop ins? Are they only safe/good for cowboy ammo?
BlindShooter
I was wondering the same thing.
I'm thinking of getting one of these for myself for Chistmas. I used to have a kentucky pistol when I was a kid and I want to get back into shooting. (it's been a LOOONG time). This gun looks like a hoot to shoot.
so anyone try one of those R & D drop ins? Are they only safe/good for cowboy ammo?
Desert Scorpion
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I have had the R&D conversion for the Walker. It is not that great I bought it from possible shop, good site $200.00 . However the conversion cylinder took 45LC and every shot from the recoil made the lever drop on my gun because of the force of the bullet. I got rid of it however I know people who love it. Me personally, why convert such a good BP gun to shoot a real bullet. Just get a Peacemaker if you want to shoot 45LC. It is annoying to load too, you have to pull the wedge then take the gun all apart then take the cylinder out take the cylinder apart load the cylinder put back on the firing pins cover then reverse process. YAAAAAA that is fun:banghead:
$200.00 . However the conversion cylinder took 45LC and every shot from the recoil made the lever drop on my gun because of the force of the bullet. I got rid of it however I know people who love it. Me personally, why convert such a good BP gun to shoot a real bullet. Just get a Peacemaker if you want to shoot 45LC. It is annoying to load too, you have to pull the wedge then take the gun all apart then take the cylinder out take the cylinder apart load the cylinder put back on the firing pins cover then reverse process. YAAAAAA that is fun:banghead:glen walker
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If any of ya'll remember the 'Dirty Harry' movies with Clint Eastwood, (I'vd never seen any of them) the handgun he carried was the Smith and Wesson Model 29, .44 Mag...The Walker, with a full powder charge, is more powerful than the Model 29, and THAT, my good friends, is a well documented and well tested, and well proven (although evidently not so well known) FACT!...
Old Dragoon
Member
But not so the 357 magnum.
Granted we're talking different calibers, but Elmer Kieth said that the Walker was the most powerful handgun until the 357 Magnum became avaiable. I don't think he mentioned the 44 Magnum.
Having shot all three, The 357 seems to me to have a lot more power than the Walker or the 44 Magnum. These were all at least 8 inch bbls or what was standard on the Walker. Recoil from the 357 was the worst of the three. the other two about the same due to the weight of the Walker.
Granted we're talking different calibers, but Elmer Kieth said that the Walker was the most powerful handgun until the 357 Magnum became avaiable. I don't think he mentioned the 44 Magnum.
Having shot all three, The 357 seems to me to have a lot more power than the Walker or the 44 Magnum. These were all at least 8 inch bbls or what was standard on the Walker. Recoil from the 357 was the worst of the three. the other two about the same due to the weight of the Walker.
glen walker
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A .357 IS a very powerful round with good penetration, sir. However, it absolutely DOES NOT have the power of a well loaded .44 Hagnum. Shoot an animal with a .357 (which is also if I might add, a very inaccurate round. The .44 Special is one of the most accurate revolver rounds ever conjured up, with the .38 Special real close behind) and you have,..well,..just a hole. Shoot that same animal with a .44 Mag, and you'll be there all day picking pieces of copper out of him....Respectfully..
hildo
Member
I have seen some topics saying the Colt Walker was the most powerfull revolver... untill the 357 Magnum was developed in 1935 or so, and the 44 Magnum is more powerfull than the 357.
Still the Walker was king of revolvers for 88 years, think that's a record on it's own. Or... isn't it?
Still the Walker was king of revolvers for 88 years, think that's a record on it's own. Or... isn't it?
glen walker
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WALKER REVOLVER
LENGTH--15 1/2 INCHES
WEIGHT--4 1/2 POUNDS
CALIBER .44 (.451)
BULLET WEIGHT 138 GRAINS
POWDER CHARGE 55 TO 70 GRAINS
MUZZLE VELOCITY WITH 55 GRAINS--1200 FEET PER SECOND
MUZZLE ENERGY WITH 55 GRAINS--450
I am not trying to argue with anyone. But I know for a fact that many tests have been conducted over the last several years. Listen to me. Ya'll are not wrong; you're just not right. The .44 Walker with a full powder charge is right up there with the best of the modern .44 Magnums, and both of them are far more powerful than the .357 Magnum. The .357 has (by and large) a faster rate of travel than the.44 has. The .44 is slower moving, but it has far more foot pounds of energy than the .357 does. I think that many (some) of you are using a chronograph to check the speed of the round and are relying strictly upon that as opposed to figuring in bullet mass and...never mind. All I'm going to do here is piss off some people and I'm not trying to do that. Just take my word for it. Special operation teams, also the U.S. Army Special Forces, (Green Berets) U.S. Marine Corps Force Recon, the U.S. Navy Seals, and some other U.S. Governmental Agencies that would make the 'Soccer Moms' urinate all over themselves with fear just simply knowing that we have people like that, have each ran test after test. They have arrived at several indisputable facts...To wit::The .357 is a very inaccurate round. The modern .44 Magnum has much more stopping and knock down power than the .357 Magnum, including further down range. However, while retaining more foot pounds of energy further down range, the .44 Mag will experience a faster rate of drop after the first 100 yards, than the .357 Magnum. To wit:: The blackpowder Walker (which was brought into the equation while trying to arrive at a satisfactory answer concerning the accuracy of the .44 caliber round) proved to have much more knock down power and stopping power than the .357 Magnum....I myself have read several articles on this computer which state that the .44 Walker was the most powerful handgun UNTIL the .357 Magnum came along. I have read those articles the same as the rest of the people on this forum has, but those articles are inaccurate, (out of order) (out of line ) (incorrect)...Respectfully..
LENGTH--15 1/2 INCHES
WEIGHT--4 1/2 POUNDS
CALIBER .44 (.451)
BULLET WEIGHT 138 GRAINS
POWDER CHARGE 55 TO 70 GRAINS
MUZZLE VELOCITY WITH 55 GRAINS--1200 FEET PER SECOND
MUZZLE ENERGY WITH 55 GRAINS--450
I am not trying to argue with anyone. But I know for a fact that many tests have been conducted over the last several years. Listen to me. Ya'll are not wrong; you're just not right. The .44 Walker with a full powder charge is right up there with the best of the modern .44 Magnums, and both of them are far more powerful than the .357 Magnum. The .357 has (by and large) a faster rate of travel than the.44 has. The .44 is slower moving, but it has far more foot pounds of energy than the .357 does. I think that many (some) of you are using a chronograph to check the speed of the round and are relying strictly upon that as opposed to figuring in bullet mass and...never mind. All I'm going to do here is piss off some people and I'm not trying to do that. Just take my word for it. Special operation teams, also the U.S. Army Special Forces, (Green Berets) U.S. Marine Corps Force Recon, the U.S. Navy Seals, and some other U.S. Governmental Agencies that would make the 'Soccer Moms' urinate all over themselves with fear just simply knowing that we have people like that, have each ran test after test. They have arrived at several indisputable facts...To wit::The .357 is a very inaccurate round. The modern .44 Magnum has much more stopping and knock down power than the .357 Magnum, including further down range. However, while retaining more foot pounds of energy further down range, the .44 Mag will experience a faster rate of drop after the first 100 yards, than the .357 Magnum. To wit:: The blackpowder Walker (which was brought into the equation while trying to arrive at a satisfactory answer concerning the accuracy of the .44 caliber round) proved to have much more knock down power and stopping power than the .357 Magnum....I myself have read several articles on this computer which state that the .44 Walker was the most powerful handgun UNTIL the .357 Magnum came along. I have read those articles the same as the rest of the people on this forum has, but those articles are inaccurate, (out of order) (out of line ) (incorrect)...Respectfully..
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