The iconic status of the 1911...

[Kentak]

Please, this is not intended to start another acrimonious pro/anti 1911 debate.

I have nothing against the 1911, it is a great classic design. I just don't feel a need to own one at this time.

My question is this: Isn't a big part of the early success and eventual iconic status of the 1911 due as much to the .45 cartridge it was designed for as the innovative design itself?

In other words, if JMB had designed the 1911 for, say, the 9mm, would the gun have taken off as it did?

And, today, with so many good .45 autos to choose from, is there really any reason to consider the 1911 over something else *other than* it's historic prominence?

K

 

[10-Ring]

"if JMB had designed the 1911 for, say, the 9mm"

JMB's handy work in 45 acp....

 

[10-Ring]

"if JMB had designed the 1911 for, say, the 9mm"

JMB's handy work in 45 acp....


and in 9mm...


Tough to deny designs that work

 

[tbtrout]

Maybe time and combat tested reliability and performance.Or the fact that is what a lot of us cut our teeth on and depended on for our lives. So we are comfortable with them. The fact that it is a .45 is a big plus. But there are a lot of 1911's sold in other calibers. So I would have to say shooters recognize a quality design when they see one. Why else would we have so many manufacturers making 1911's. With new ones coming out each year. Not to mention the fact that quite a few Military Units went back to old reliable after being disatisfied with the lack of stoping power with the M9. When you have something that works, why change it?

There are some other quality .45's out there, but the 1911 keeps growing.

 

[RNB65]

Isn't a big part of the early success and eventual iconic status of the 1911 due as much to the .45 cartridge it was designed for as the innovative design itself?

The biggest factor in the iconic status of the 1911 is that the US government kept it as the official US military sidearm for 74 years including two world wars and numerous regional conflicts. Any weapon on active duty for 3/4 of a century is going to be an icon regardless of design, caliber, or who designed it.

 

[shaggycat]

While I conceed that many quality .45s do now exist, I have yet to find a trigger I like as much as that of the 1911. On top of that, I love the ergonomics of the gun.

I shoot my 1911 more acurately than I can a Buckmark or Ruger 22. It just fits.

 

[universal]

I think the fact that the "real" 1911s i.e. not the $2,000 custom jobs with more add-ons than you can shake a stick at, were said to be very reliable weapons has had a lot to do with their initial, and continued popularity. They were hard to jam and stood up to all sorts of abuse. I also think that the success the .45ACP had as an effective round compared to the .38 Long Colt it replaced, also added a lot for the shooting public to fall in love with.

I think the 1911 design is nice, but, and don't hate me for saying this, it is outdated. It is still useful and I would carry one if I had to without much complaint. However, it would not be my first choice. I will say this: were I to obtain a .45ACP chambered handgun today, it would most likely be a 1911 type pistol. That is the real .45ACP and I do have some sense of tradition. As a matter of fact, when I became a United States citizen (I was unlucky and was born elsewhere), one of the happiest days of my life, I purchased myself a 1911 (1991A1 to be exact) made by Colt. I could not think of anything more American than that.

 

[doubleg]

It is outdated I agree. But the same things that cause limitations on its "tacticool" features also make it a dead solid reliable design and quick shooting pistol with quick follow up shots. It is THE most reliable pistol ever when made to the exact specifications. Sorry GLOCK fans even then any pistol can have duds.

 

[MrDig]

I only own Hi-Power design Auto Pistols right now but I plan on buying a 1911/A1. and these will probably be the only Auto Pistol designs I own.
I do own a revolver at the moment so the answer ot your question YES is I am a crumudgeon.
The Iconic staus of the 1911/A1 is it the round? Yes and Much more, Soldiers for generations, Three or Four Generations, have used this design to defend and die for the U.S. and it's citizens. For crying out loud there were still Horse mounted Cavalry units when it was adopted. Same gun at the first Phillipine war as was at the second war we fought there, Okinawa, Iwo Jima, Normandy, Salerno, North Africa, Pusan, Saigon, How many battles ingrained in our history and our consciousness were the 1911/A1 involved in? ALL of them.
When all us old crumudgeons die off the fact will remain that for longer than any other weapon of the 20th Century the 1911/A1 served as a standard issue weapon.

 

[ugaarguy]

My question is this: Isn't a big part of the early success and eventual iconic status of the 1911 due as much to the .45 cartridge it was designed for as the innovative design itself?

Maybe, when limited to FMJ ammo by the Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC) you need to start with a big hole since you don't have the luxury of the bullet expanding. Without a doubt the 45 ACP fits that description.

In other words, if JMB had designed the 1911 for, say, the 9mm, would the gun have taken off as it did?

I'll pose the reverse. The Ordnance Dept tested the Luger in 45 ACP and it lost to the 1911. On the other hand Browning's Hi-Power in 9mm has endured, though it's seems to be more popular on the other side of the Atlantic. We can also look at the small, but significant, portion of 1911s in .38 Super. I've no doubt that the 1911 would have taken off without the 45 ACP. The design is top notch and I have to wonder if the 45 ACP cartridge would have taken off without the 1911.

And, today, with so many good .45 autos to choose from, is there really any reason to consider the 1911 over something else *other than* it's historic prominence?

Better trigger than any other pistol, great ergonomics, fits my hand better than any other pistol, largest after market of any pistol so you can get exactly what you want, and great accuracy seem like a good mix of general & personal reasons I've chosen the 1911. Then again, you could look to the US Marines Special Forces Units, LAPD SWAT, and FBI HRT who've chosen 1911s.

 

[wooderson]

Civilian purchases follow military and police trends. Trap-door Springfields to bolt-actions to early semi-autos to the AR-15, from SAA to DA revolvers/1911s to hi-cap 9mms. (So I, of course, agree with the poster who said it was because the military kept it in service - and in the public eye - for so long.)

Why is a Thompson SMG such an icon? Because of its calibre and abilities, or because we all saw pictures of Al Capone growing up (and later on, Saving Private Ryan or your favorite WWII film here)?

 

[Logan5]

The Thompson had a much shorter day in the sun though... As SMG's go, it's heavy and dated, and people no longer debate the merits of the blish locking system and cutts compensators. Most people have pretty much stopped debating the need for an SMG at all.
This is not the case with pistols. In 1974, the P220 was barely a twinkling in SIG's eye; they had barely begun to sort out production with Sauer and were known as SIG Neuhausen; the people who made the P210. In thirty two years, none of the new .45 pistol designs have exactly taken the world by storm.

 

[Magnumite]

Of course, there are the competition circles. If the design didn't work, the huge ranks of shooters wouldn't be shooting the 1911.

I cut my teeth on revolvers and still would take a big bore revolver as my only handgun if I had to. The 1911 doesn't point naturally and when I started shooting it, it was like holding a 1x2 board. But it grew on me. Now it is one of my favorite types of handguns. So I would say yes, the 1911 is still here on its own merit, not just nostalgia.

 

[Dobe]

Personally, the history of the 1911 means little to me other than the history of dependability and of both the 1911 and the .45 ACP.

As far as the 1911 in 9mm, I have a Kimber 9mm Target that would be my 9mm of choice for carry, if I were to carry a full size 9mm (well, maybe a BHP). I'm not a big believer in high cap handguns. The ergonomics, trigger, and overall function of the 1911 is hard to beat.

Dobe

 

[Chuhhuniban]

Another, not cited, reason is simplicity. I have Colts (check signature) and three S&W third-generation auto-loaders, a BHP and a couple of Sigs. Every one of the last three types are more complex, more parts, more things to go wrong or break (Murphy lives). Add to that the fact that I can disassemble my Colts with no tools (not field strip, disassemble). It's hard to think of any other firearm that works so well and is so simple, ergo: Icon...

 

[JohnL2]

John Browning was a genius. He belongs right up there with Samuel Colt.

 

[joab]

For most of my life I hated autos and would never seriously consider owning for for any real work.
The first 1911 I picked up changed that opinion.
I have gone through Beretta, Smiths and Rugers but none hold a candle to the 1911 for ease of operation and dependability. The only other auto that I have owned that even holds a candle to it is the HiPower.
Besides, It's what God shoots

 

[boldkharma]

Can't think of any firearm I like better:

 

[Simon Yu]

Someone else already said it, but I'll echo that the 1911 fits my hand better than most other .45s. The single stack frame is about the only way a .45 will fit my smaller than average hands in a non-compact pistol. If more companies made .45s with single stack frames, this wouldn't really be an issue but that doesn't seem to be the case so for me it just made more sense than a more modern design that didn't fit so well.

 

[Walkalong]

My question is this: Isn't a big part of the early success and eventual iconic status of the 1911 due as much to the .45 cartridge it was designed for as the innovative design itself?

It certainly helped, but even if it had been designed in .33 POS it was such a great design it would have been adapted to good calibers.

 

[Seraph]

I've no doubt that the 1911 would have taken off without the 45 ACP... I have to wonder if the 45 ACP cartridge would have taken off without the 1911.

Very well said. The 1911 isn't favored because of tradition. Rather, the 1911 has become a tradition, only because it has, for a very long time, consistenly been a favorite.

 

[wooderson]

The Thompson had a much shorter day in the sun though...

But it remains in the limelight nonetheless - how many firearms are there that the average person could name? (the Thompson and the Luger I would guess) Most people couldn't tell you what a 1911 is or differentiate between a Glock and <x> or tell you 'that gun they saw in SPR' was a Garand - but a 'Tommy Gun' they probably know.

 

[f4t9r]

And, today, with so many good .45 autos to choose from, is there really any reason to consider the 1911 over something else *other than* it's historic prominence?

The way it feels in your hand , The smooth trigger , Slim design.
I have shot or owned about all of them and I really like the SIG P220 but My favorite is still the 1911.

 

[CWL]

if JMB had designed the 1911 for, say, the 9mm, would the gun have taken off as it did?

JMB did design it as a 9mm, it's called the Browning Hi-Power. The hi-power has quite a cult following of it's own. Copies of the hi-power such as the CZ line of pistols also have their devoted followers.

 

[Redhat]

A very popular assumption but CZs are not copies of the BHP. If you want some good reading check this site

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Browning%20and%20CZ.htm