Popularity of anemic calibers and late popularity of the .45 1911...

[leadcounsel]

History shows that anemic calibers such as the .22, .25, .32, .380 and 9x18 were very popular in the US (and other places in the world) for defensive rounds AND service handguns.

This persisted into the early and mid 1900s.

Yet, the world saw the success of the 9x19 and the .45 in service calibers/weapons, particularly the Colt 1911.

Why, then, did these larger calibers and models of handgun, particularly the 1911, take so long to catch on with the public? It seems surprising, looking back, that police forces in the 1940s and 50s didn't immediately adopt the 1911. Was it due to cost vs. a .38 revolver?

Did people think the extra firepower was unnecessary? Was it only necessary with the advent of better medical care? Did they gain popularity with the increase in shall issue concealed carry states? Was it due to the increase in the firepower of the bad guys (such as during prohibition, then the crack cocaine drug wars, etc.) and the 'arms race?'

 

[Nushif]

While your and my definition of anemic may vary ... Meaning the 9x18 has established its efficiency quite nicely in the parts of the world we usually care nothing about, I propose another hypothesis.

It is arguably harder to shoot a service caliber well, than a less hard kicking one, and only recently with the mass availability of ammunition has the average consumer been able to practice enough to be able to carry a service size caliber with confidence.

 

[rcmodel]

Could be the times they were a changing.

Up until the widespread use of penicillin, getting shot in the guts with a small caliber lead bullet was almost certainly a sentence to a slow and agonizing death from infection.

But old west lawmen, cowboys, & outlaws certainly almost always carried the largest calibers they could get.
Like 38-40, 44-40, .44 Russian, and .45 Colt.
But they were very likely to eventually have to shoot someone or something they needed to stay shot.
Most city slickers weren't.

By the time the lawless west was tamed, civilians were mostly unarmed due to concealed carry or open carry bans in most populated areas throughout the country.
So small hideout guns became more popular then large guns for civilians.

They could also buy a cheap .32 revolver for a couple of days wages, while a 1911 might cost a months wages or more.
And just getting bread on the table was about all anyone with a job could accomplish then.

The cops were wedded to revolvers due to simplicity, safety, and tradition.
Police higher-ups that decided such things, didn't trust the new fangled automatics, and were positive all the underlings would kill each other with them before they got done dressing for duty each day.

It took a lot of time, retirements, money, and training to change that thinking.

rc

 

[DWT]

I think the North Hollywood bank robbery shootout, back in Feb. of 1997, was an eye opener for law enforcement. It showed on film that two determined bad guys with homemade body armor and superior firepower could easily dominate lawmen armed with 38 spec. and 9mm. It's perhaps the most important single event to promote the increase in firepower for law enforcement in many years.

 

[MCgunner]

I often carry a revolver, let alone a 7 shot 9x18. I do own and often carry an 11 shot 9x19, but it's a pocket carry gun. Self defense is NOT war. There is no need for suppressive fire and laws what they are, excessive penetration can be a legal liability. Anyway, sidearms have never been a main weapon in military service. Heck, they came up with the M1 Carbine to replace sidearms in certain service, shoulder fired arms being easier to hit at longer ranges with.

Anyway, I'm not one that carries on a belt, not when it's over 100 degrees and over 70 percent humidity most of the year. Our winter cold snaps are long sleeve shirt weather. Only time I really need a coat is riding my motorcycles in January. I carry what I can 24/7 cause my .45 in my safe does me no good. Armed citizens don't have the requirements of a Navy Seal in a PDW. 9x18 or 9x17 can serve just fine and a .22 is better than teeth and nails. I might start carrying a bigger belt gun if Texas ever passes open carry. I won't open carry, but I'm sorta paranoid of "flashing" and don't like IWB. I like my .357 K frame in a Don Hume slide holster. It's comfy.

 

[Jenrick]

Why, then, did these larger calibers and models of handgun, particularly the 1911, take so long to catch on with the public? It seems surprising, looking back, that police forces in the 1940s and 50s didn't immediately adopt the 1911. Was it due to cost vs. a .38 revolver?

FMJ ammunition does not work all that well, hence why JHP's are the standard in LE these days. The 1911 platform has traditionally had issues shooting anything other then a narrow range of FMJ bullets. A revolver on the other hand could handle JHP's, wad cutters, etc. without a problem. This lack of reliability with JHP's prevented the adoption of the automatic pistol in general for many years in LE. For further I'd recommend Bill Jordan's "No Second Place Winner," and Paul Westons "Combat Shooting for Police." Both talk about this in detail.

-Jenrick

 

[orionengnr]

There is a lot of wisdom in Post #3.
But that is nothing new, considering the source.

 

[Dr.Rob]

For a long time Colt was the only viable .45 auto on the market and as mentioned it was EXPENSIVE, especially during the depression.

Post WW2 the availability of surplus 45's and 9mm's plus a booming economy saw many more people getting their hands on both. But the 45 was "America's gun" the 9mm a war trophy. The 9mm didn't really get popular until the 80's.

And the revolution of the 'wondernine' (In the early to mid 80's) shut the door on the market for pocket pistols. Revolvers were commonplace in police forces well into the 90's. Simply some agencies saw 'no good reason' to change out a mountain of 38's for 9mm's until companies like SW, Beretta and Glock gave huge discounts to their wondernines.

 

[JohnBT]

Why were they slow to catch on? They weren't needed prior to WWII.

Prior to the introduction of sulfa drugs in 1939 and then the development of other antibiotics, being gut shot with what you call an anemic caliber could lead to a very painful death from the infection you get when your intestines leak into your abdominal cavity. Any gun could kill you with a shot. Slowly maybe, but that's a really ugly way to go.

John

 

[NMGonzo]

In Europe, a handgun was more a symbol of authority for police personnel and army officers than a "knock 'em down right now" type of weapon.

The Brits had the Webley, the russians had some .44's, but among civilian populations I don't think there was the PERCIEVED need of something with more humph.

 

[MCgunner]

And the revolution of the 'wondernine' shut the door on the market for pocket pistols.

Uh? What's pocket pistols have to do with duty weapons? Wondernines "shut the door" on pocket pistols? I think not. One of the hottest selling guns on the civilian market now days is the micro .380 and there's a danged good reason for that......called shall issue CHL. The rules of concealment assure the pocket pistol will remain the hottest selling gun type on the market for quite a while. Just look at all the Kel tec clones.

Me, I prefer pocket 9s.

Wondernine duty guns and "pocket pistols" are apples and oranges. Some European militaries once carried mouse calibers, now carry 9s. Is THAT what you're talkin' about? If so, I might have missed the point and apologize.

 

[Dogguy]

Simple answer: Police agencies didn't adopt the 1911 in the '40s and '50s because it was not as reliable as a revolver. Automatics had the reputation of jamming. Revolvers didn't.

Matter of fact, it was sometime in the late 1980s before you could buy a brand-new stock 1911 that would reliably feed hollow points without a gunsmith's touch. And many 1911s made prior to that time sometimes choked on hardball. Automatics were notorious for hanging up--problems feeding, chambering, extracting and ejecting.

As for the 9mm, it wasn't really viable as a self-defense or police weapon until the ammunition improved. FMJ 9mm ammo simply wasn't very effective, there were few guns available to fire it and the guns that were available were mostly made somewhere other than the USA and they cost more.

The ammunition issue is one of the reasons the smaller caliber guns are still popular and gaining in popularity as well. Ammo is better today than it ever has been. New powders and bullet designs along with stronger components in firearms manufacture means today's .32 and .380 pocket pistols are probably more reliable fight stoppers than the .38 Special loaded with round nose lead bullets from decades past.

 

[Loosedhorse]

In many places in Europe, it is still easy to spot the Americans in a crowded place or piazza--they are the tall ones (and, unfortunately, increasingly the fat ones). That perhaps makes American defenders more able to shoot larger calibers, and American attackers more likely to require them.

Europe has never seen a need for anything bigger than 9mm, and even .30s were common. In contrast, to the extent that the US has moved away from .45, it has moved to .40.

 

[rcmodel]

This lack of reliability with JHP's prevented the adoption of the automatic pistol in general for many years in LE

It's worth noting that high performance JHP's for auto's, or revolvers, had not been invented yet until Super-Vel hit the scene in the early 1970's, and didn't really take off until the 80's.

Before that, if you shot an auto, you shot FMJ-RN or jacketed mid-range match from Remington or Winchester.

If you shot a .38 Spl revolver, you shot 158 grain Lead RN, or mid-range match wadcutters from Remington or Winchester.

Cause that's about all there was for sale then.

Lead SWC was offered in the two magnum revolver calibers, and everything else was mostly lead round nose.

rc

 

[leadcounsel]

Matter of fact, it was sometime in the late 1980s before you could buy a brand-new stock 1911 that would reliably feed hollow points without a gunsmith's touch. And many 1911s made prior to that time sometimes choked on hardball. Automatics were notorious for hanging up--problems feeding, chambering, extracting and ejecting.

So if I read this right, the 1911 of WWII wasn't reliable?

 

[Dr.Rob]

Uh? What's pocket pistols have to do with duty weapons? Wondernines "shut the door" on pocket pistols? I think not.

I was speaking of a specific timeframe, when the wondernine revolution started up. (Original posted edited to say early 1980's) There were simply very few domestic 'pocket autos' on the market. Colt had a few 380's, S&W and Ruger had none, but all three 'big' US MFG's were eager to get into /improve in the wondernine game.


I'd agree we are now seeing a resurgance in the interest in pocket guns and CHLs/CCW's have everything to do with that increase in sales and marketing. Ruger and SW now have dedicated 'carry' lines, Colt is bringing back the .380 after selling the rights to Sig, who had a very good pistol in the 230/232 series.

Just like interest in Cowboy shooting led to the plethora of SAA clones now available.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

The "anemic calibers" are still popular because of the little guns that chamber them. Rightly or wrongly, it is a lot easier to stick one of these in your pocket or something than to strap on a carry rig with a large heavy pistol every time you want to go out.

 

[Mike1234567]

IMHO, it's mostly a matter of communication and, subsequently, education. Mass COM revolutionizes everything.

 

[Plan2Live]

Actually, it was because James Bond showed us that all we really needed was a British Accent and a .25 Beretta or a .32 Walther. You could kill everything from snakes to bad guys, some with fully automatic weapons. You could even make pressurized fuel tanks explode. Drop a dart with a rope attached down the muzzle and you could mountain climb, er ah..building climb with it. Who needed anything big?

I think it was Sonny Crocket (Miami Vice) and his big ole Bren Ten that got the big autoloader train rolling.

Pop culture. Sounds crazy but think about it. Would we have flip phone today without Captain James T. Kirk making us all want one?

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Quiet]

And the revolution of the 'wondernine' shut the door on the market for pocket pistols.

Actually what shut the door on the market for pocket pistols was two main factors.

#1) The Gun Control Act of 1968, which created a point system to determine if a handgun was legal for importation into the USA for civilian sales.
This point system effectively banned almost all foreign made pocketguns.

#2) Anti-CCW laws through out the USA.
Prior to 1987...
1 state was "constitutional carry".
8 states were "shall-issue".
26 states were "may-issue".
15 states were no issue.

What revitalized the pocketgun market in the USA was the fact that CCW laws were reformed through out the USA.

Currently in 2011...
4 states are "constitutional carry".
37 states are "shall issue".
8 states are "may-issue".
1 state is no issue.

 

[lockbreech]

"Popularity of anemic calibers and late popularity of the .45 1911..."

Let me add my two cents if I may. Americans just have never made a good auto-loading pistol ever. The 1911 was a maintenance nightmare and junked by our military for a proven Italian design, Beretta 92FS, many years ago. Recently just about every country is cloning the bad 1911 design and improving it some what to sell it to selective cult following market here in the USA.

Now as endemic rounds go, I just wonder how many of you 1911 gun snobs would be willing to get in front of my Beretta Bob Cat 21a .22 lr pistol loaded with a batch of CCI Stingers. Not many I suspect! It also fits in my pocket and doesn't pull my pants down either. 1911 was a good year but Beretta has been making auto-loaders since the 15th century, 1526 if memory serves me correctly!

 

[Lubricant]

"Popularity of anemic calibers and late popularity of the .45 1911..."

Let me add my two cents if I may. Americans just have never made a good auto-loading pistol ever. The 1911 was a maintenance nightmare and junked by our military for a proven Italian design, Beretta 92FS, many years ago. Recently just about every country is cloning the bad 1911 design and improving it some what to sell it to selective cult following market here in the USA.

Now as endemic rounds go, I just wonder how many of you 1911 gun snobs would be willing to get in front of my Beretta Bob Cat 21a .22 lr pistol loaded with a batch of CCI Stingers. Not many I suspect! It also fits in my pocket and doesn't pull my pants down either. 1911 was a good year but Beretta has been making auto-loaders since the 15th century, 1526 if memory serves me correctly!

Yea,The Berretta is a superior pistol.Thats why so many of our spec-ops guys in the "Stans carry 1911s.The"Maintenance Nightmare"crack was funny,But the"Bad Design" bit had me rolling on the floor.Good luck if You ever have to use that little kitty-cat for real.

 

[Jenrick]

Europe for years was fine with smaller calibers due to the simple fact that they don't view handguns as the primary weapon of their police force. The only officers who carry just a handgun are usually traffic police, or units that were class A formal uniforms to look pretty for the tourists etc. Take a look at France or Italy, their working cops carry SMG's or assault rifles.

Thats why so many of our spec-ops guys in the "Stans carry 1911s.

Having been in a class with a gentleman headed over to Afghanistan the next day, been instructed buy a gentleman who teaches those same folks, and working with a gentleman who is one of those folks and headed over there again sometime soon (Reserves) Glocks are much preferred for field duty. A 1911 doesn't handle the grit and junk in the field all that well, and a Glock holds a lot more rounds if it really hits the fan. On the other hand the 1911 is primarily used for CQB/Hostage Rescue stuff due to it's superb trigger and precision (when tuned right). The Beretta is the choice of guys who aren't really into guns and just shoot what they get handed (believe me there are more then you think in our military even those HSLD units).

I just wonder how many of you 1911 gun snobs would be willing to get in front of my Beretta Bob Cat 21a .22 lr pistol loaded with a batch of CCI Stingers.

If you were going to do something to me and mine, I'd much prefer you tried it with your Bob Cat then a 1911 or a Beretta 92 FS. I don't want to be shot period, but I'd take a .22lr hit over a .45 ACP or 9mm hit any day of week.

-Jenrick

 

[Fir Fer]

Lockbreech, you are one funny dude!

 

[lockbreech]

I don't know about funny but I do know that I have an accumulated knowledge base spanning almost 50 years with the 1911A1 and it's many many problems. The first 500 guns Colt ever produced caused sever consternation and failure in field application and were promptly returned for modification and repairs. The firing pin retainer was squared off on the bottom and when the hammer was flush up against it our troops just could not operate the slide. Thus the first design modification of the tapered firing pin retainer was born.

Let is also be known that Remington Rand manufactured almost four times as many 1911 pistols than all the other 4 manufactures. Not bad for a typewriter company and not a gun maker. Their electric shaver subsidiary also made the majority of the magazines also. so so much for that Colt Myth! Colt did have greater success with plastic guns in it's manufacturer of the Richard Stoner AR 15. M16 military acquisition.