Popularity of anemic calibers and late popularity of the .45 1911...

[Rail Driver]

I can't answer for anyone else, but I can answer for myself. To start with, I've never carried anything smaller than 9x18. I started with a 9mm, and traded it for a Makarov. I only carried the 9x18 for a short time. The first time I took it out shooting I learned that the silver bear ammo I had it loaded with didn't even have enough power to penetrate the <1mm sheet steel of a cheap computer case. I sold that pistol fairly quickly and moved up to a .40, but now I carry a 1911 Commander in .45ACP because I found a deal on a very good looking pistol with a Colt rollmark in a caliber that I'm confident in. I still carry a G26 9mm as backup. The 1911, heavy and "outdated" as it is, fits me well. It conceals as well as the Glock, feeds whatever I put in it (currently loaded with 185gr hardcast lead SWC @ ~1100fps).

@lockbreech: I can tell you from personal experience that if I did find myself on the receiving end of a .22LR out of a short barreled handgun, the person shooting me with the .22 would very likely find out just how much energy a few of those .45ACP rounds impart on the target before I am out of the fight. The difference is that I've got a much better chance to simply go to the hospital and the goblin will likely go to the morgue. There's a reason LEO/Military don't use .22LR (or other small, weaker calibers such as .25, .32, .380) for much beyond training or in VERY specific circumstances where something else won't work.

While nobody ever knows how things will work out, I have seen a person take 3 shots with a .22LR pistol (a Taurus tip up .22lr similar to your bobcat - lower left chest, sternum, right ribcage) and had no problem returning fire with his service pistol (G21 .45ACP). A gun is better than no gun, but please bring enough gun for the potential target because you never know how it will go down, and I'll tell you what my buddy told me: even facing down a lowly .22 pistol, that .45 in his hand felt mighty small. (Edit to add: My friend survived with little damage. A cracked rib and a couple surgery scars removing bullet fragments from his chest and one of his ribs)

 

[Skylerbone]

Maybe next we'll hear about .22 cal having killed more people on earth than any other caliber (and I would have guessed some sort of musket ball myself) or how, though it's officially denied, Israeli Special Forces are packing Buckmarks.

I could understand an armorer being frustrated with working on pistols that had reached beyond their practical service life but the incessant rant has yet to hold water on any count of the indictment.

Lock-breached you are not, as is evident by what's coming out.

 

[alienbogey]

Time to stop feeding the troll.

 

[MICHAEL T]

I'm sorry to see you back lockbreech. Your posts under previous THR screen names such as shortround360, isabella, DonRon, thehootman, hooterman, and possibly many others provide nothing of value to the discussion on this forum.

You for got a few of his other names here such as doc glock, boomer, boomer 9

Now please excuse me while I go clean all my junk 1911 's that got dirty at the range
They shoot real good for being such junk.

 

[JohnBT]

"JohnBT...you are aware that the WW2-era pistols' specs and dimensions were tweaked to allow complete, drop-in interchangeability of parts, regardless of the contractor."

Sure, but that ruins the joke about the government's ability to plan ahead for Viet Nam. That does lead to a question. Did all of those interchangable parts in those well worn mixmasters wear out evenly or was reliability compromised in small ways down through the decades?

I can't recall knowing anyone who carried a 1911 through an entire tour in Nam. My father had one briefly in WWII after he left New Guinea, but he got rid of it a long time before they got to the Philippines. He was Army Air Corps and wasn't supposed to have it anyway.

John

 

[dusty14u]

"JohnBT...you are aware that the WW2-era pistols' specs and dimensions were tweaked to allow complete, drop-in interchangeability of parts, regardless of the contractor."

Sure, but that ruins the joke about the government's ability to plan ahead for Viet Nam. That does lead to a question. Did all of those interchangable parts in those well worn mixmasters wear out evenly or was reliability compromised in small ways down through the decades?

I can't recall knowing anyone who carried a 1911 through an entire tour in Nam. My father had one briefly in WWII after he left New Guinea, but he got rid of it a long time before they got to the Philippines. He was Army Air Corps and wasn't supposed to have it anyway.

John

My step-father carried 1 1911 through 3 tours in Vietnam, but he was an Air Force jockey. 2 Tours flying low level recon in RF-4C's and 1 tour in C130 flying defoliation on the Ho-ChiMin trail. He was in Thailand for that tour though with the Australian Ranch Hands. As far as I know he still has the pistol.

 

[1911Tuner]

Did all of those interchangable parts in those well worn mixmasters wear out evenly or was reliability compromised in small ways down through the decades?

Oh, sure...on the really bad ones. When things get that worn, specs are all over the map.

But...

I've got several nice examples of WW1 and WW2 era pistols along with a 1925 commercial Government Model (Including Colt...Ithaca...Remington Rand...and the Union Switch twins.) that can't tell the difference between hardball and hollowpoints and even the Hensley & Gibbs #68 cast lead SWC...and they feed'em through the old "Hardball" magazines made by General Shaver, Scovill, etc. None of these guns have been tweaked beyond retensioning the extractors in a couple of the really old ones, and one Remington Rand that was 95-98% when I bought it in nearly unissued condition ran like a Singer sewing machine. (No pun intended.) My guess is that it laid unused and untouched for decades before I got it.

The pistol was designed to function. If it's built to spec and fed decent ammunition from proper magazines, it will function. It doesn't have a choice. It's a machine.

 

[Jenrick]

Nordeste I appreciate the info. You are definitely the subject matter expert on European PD's. Certainly the majority of officers I saw carrying long weapons were posted at airports and popular tourist destinations, so that's probably why I formed the opinion I did.

-Jenrick

 

[leadcounsel]

Well, as much as a POS that Lockbreech claims the 1911 is, I would sure LOVE to invent something that has been as widely used and changed the handgun world and is loved and copied in largely the same design as the original going on over a century! There are simply not many technology advances that can say that. The 1911 was invented and implemented around the time of the Wright brothers first flight and a decade before the Model T Ford combustion engine car. And nobody still uses those! I would die happy if something I invented positively and forever changed the world and still had a popular following in year 2111!

Back to the regularly scheduled thread though...

I wonder if, in some deep psychological way, modern people don't react the same to being shot as people a century ago ... , due to increased size, strength, health, and better medical technology give people a modern edge with regard to not going down as quickly with smaller calibers...

 

[rcmodel]

It could be "The times they are a changing", as I said in post #3.

Back then, the illegal drugs of choice were opium and marijuana.
I understand both make a person pretty laid back and calm.

Todays mind altering drugs of choice are Crack, Amphetamine, PCP, and a potpourri of other synthetic chemicals never imagined in the early 20th century.

And they make you crazy, and desperate for money for more!
And some make you immune to pain or trauma from a bullet wound!!

I'm pretty convinced if it weren't for drugs and drug related crime today?
About the only need for a SD gun with real "stopping power" would be caused by infidelity!!

rc

 

[Fastcast]

Todays mind altering drugs of choice are Crack, Amphetamine, PCP, and a potpourri of other synthetic chemicals never imagined in the early 20th century.

And they can make you crazy!
As well as immune to pain or trauma from a bullet wound!!

Another reason why at SD ranges no shots from any handgun caliber, other than those that disseminate the spine or life suppling organs are guaranteed quick stops.

Once again we come back full circle, to shot placement. Whether luck or skill it's what determines winners and losers.

 

[Kachok]

Anyone who thinks that the 1911 is junk really knows nothing about firearms, just check out the original torture test the Army put it through. Sure ultra modern handguns have a few advancements over the 100 year old 1911 but the 1911 still is a proven practical weapon for those people that don't feel like two stage triggers and double stack magazines are must have items. Now I am not a 45 guy, if I want to watch my projectile go downrange I will shoot my bow, but the terminal performance of the 45 with modern hollow points is well documented and better then any common automatic handgun caliber.

 

[Norton Commando]

...if I want to watch my projectile go downrange I will shoot my bow,...

Funny!

 

[vellocet]

You know, they've been making those .45's for so long now, same basic pistol, in so many places, that about the only reason not to have one is the current insane price of ammo, which will only get worse. Yes, it is an obsolete round. On the other hand, who would have ever thought that excellent examples would be Fillipino (rock island?) Some time ago, custom gunsmiths used Norinco frames, probably can't get them anymore. I would love to own one. Too 'spensive, Lucy.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Also, define "anemic". The 38 Long Colt was a failure against the Moros, yes.
Within their limits the "anemic" calibers can be quite deadly. McKinley was shot at point blank range, died from his wounds, so did Huey Long. A single round of RNL from Jack Ruby's Colt Cobra did in Lee Harvey Oswald. These are good examples of what Carlie Askins called the "Belly Gun" but when used within their limitations and effective ranges, they usually do the job. The 30-30 is a poor choice for 300 yard shots but within its effective range of 100-150 yards it's hard to beat-of course it usually comes in an easy to handle rifle. IIRC the failure of the 38 Long Colt led to the Thompson-Lagarde tests which were one of the earliest-if not the earliest attemtps to study handgun cartridge effectiveness in a scientific manner.

 

[Kachok]

The biggest difference between the 38 and other anemic rounds is that the 38 can effectivly use 158gr bullets, the high sectional density allows greater penatration which is the first an most important aspect of terminal performance, 25s 32s 9x18s and 380s often fail to penatrate 8" with HPs well below the recomended minimum of 12". 9mms, 40s, and 45s all can easly reach 12" with quality bullets.

 

[Fastcast]

Kachok, to the contrary, quite a few of the modern .380 HPs do seem to just make or just miss the 12" cut. With that said though, I agree with you as I don't trust they'd do it on a consistent basis.

Oddly enough the 9x18 seems to penetrate even less with HPs than the .380....I'd contribute that to its wider meplat as I believe the bullets just open up too much, too quickly, because of their inherent chubby design . That wide meplat though is exactly why I'm comfortable just carrying hardball with 9x18.....By design, the 9x18 FMJ still seems to initially hit quite hard and certainly has more than enough penetration to hit vitals at any angle and or limb obstruction......Just maybe the Ruskies knew something about making FMJ overachieve.

 

[oldfool]

as to OP topic
American civilians, then and now, always have owned a lot more handguns than their European brethren (citizens, not subjects, and all that stuff), that's where the handgun mass market is

American civilians carry what cops carry
American cops mostly carried revolvers until the "hi-cap" mega-trend took over
so civilians bought revolvers
then went wild for hi-cap nines, because the cops went wild for high cap nines
(US military went from 45 to 9mm because of pricing and politics, as others have said)
cops getting ever more wild for military hardware, now, so more and more civilians just gotta' have ARs, etc., etc., etc.

as for 1911s
ain't the Troll been fed enough yet to die fat ?

 

[pockets]

Beretta has been making auto-loaders since the 15th century, 1526 if memory serves me correctly!

Gets my vote for the silliest response.
BTW: The year 1526 was in the 16th century, not the 15th. You know, like 2011 is in the 21st century.
.

 

[Dogguy]

^^

Kinda harsh...but funny and, oh so true.

 

[Kachok]

Kachok, to the contrary, quite a few of the modern .380 HPs do seem to just make or just miss the 12" cut. With that said though, I agree with you as I don't trust they'd do it on a consistent basis.

Oddly enough the 9x18 seems to penetrate even less with HPs than the .380....I'd contribute that to its wider meplat as I believe the bullets just open up too much, too quickly, because of their inherent chubby design . That wide meplat though is exactly why I'm comfortable just carrying hardball with 9x18.....By design, the 9x18 FMJ still seems to initially hit quite hard and certainly has more than enough penetration to hit vitals at any angle and or limb obstruction......Just maybe the Ruskies knew something about making FMJ overachieve.

What 380 HP are you talking about? I have seen many of them tested and none have come close to 12" I think the record was an 8.7" with 10% BG

 

[Fastcast]

What 380 HP are you talking about? I have seen many of them tested and none have come close to 12" I think the record was an 8.7" with 10% BG

http://brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page638.htm

 

[Kachok]

The only one that consistantly hit 12" was the one they backyard tested with no block calibration, no records of variables, I have seen the hydroshocks penatrate far less in other tests. That said if I were to use a 380 the HST would be a solid choice even if it did not quite hit the 12" mark.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Yea,The Berretta is a superior pistol.Thats why so many of our spec-ops guys in the "Stans carry 1911s.The"Maintenance Nightmare"crack was funny,But the"Bad Design" bit had me rolling on the floor.Good luck if You ever have to use that little kitty-cat for real.

So to interject a bit of reality into the above, based on almost five years attached to ODAs as a non-18 series support guy and having trained with folks from all sorts of parts of the SOCOM umbrella . . .

Um, no.

Unless by "so many" you mean "a handful of guys in career fields that only have a handful of guys in them to begin with."

The majority of US SOF personnel going downrange are packing Berettas, same as everyone else. Enterprising units that can find a way to ditch the Beretta are definitely known to do so, though the 1911 is not the universal replacement for the M9 if it can be gotten rid of.

On the white-side SOF side, I've only seen a few ODAs that were in possession of 1911s. In one case a whole team (or may have been their whole company, don't recall at the moment) were using 1911s they'd acquired and tuned up significantly from the way-past-their-prime USGI junk they'd gotten their hands on somewhere. Essentially the only thing they'd kept on those pistols were the serialized frames, otherwise rebuilt from the ground up.

The one other SF company that comes to mind who laid hands on a sizable quantity of 1911s looked at having to do the same ground-up rebuild and kept their M9s, reserving the 1911s (once really nice Nat'l Match models) for playing around on the range.

As far as Army cool kids go, CAG (Delta, the Chuck Norris and Lee Marvin School for Close Combat, or whatever they are calling themselves this week) dumped their 1911s years ago and started deploying with Glocks.

SEALs got rid of 1911s years ago.

The only people going to the 1911 in any numbers are the guys in MARSOC and -- while I hate to hurt feelings -- the USMC has a pretty questionable track record on small arms acquisition in the last few decades -- M16A2, M16A4, and M27 all were or look like non-selects for really adaptive, optimized combat weapons. Buying some COTS 1911s from Kimber or Springfield isn't a real resounding endorsement.

(And note -- all of the above is said from an avowed 1911 shooter, and I carried a Wilson as my duty pistol while working in law enforcement. I just get so tired of the usual "I read this on duh intraweb/in American Rifleman/saw it on History Channel" trumpeting of misinformation.)

 

[barnetmill]

Talking about anemic calibers. Not too long ago I read an article in the American Rifleman about special french troops that routinely fought hand to hand in the WWI trenches and besides knives they used a lot of .32 ACP caliber Spanish auto pistols. I imagine they shot for the head and neck.

That was interesting point about what cartridge has killed the most people. I would guess for pistols the 9x19 parabellum since it was used from 1908 to the present in multiple armies and includes submachine guns.
For rifles/machine guns most likely the 8x57 especially with all of the fighting over the years in eastern europe and china with it and its major competitor would be the .303 Enfield considering it use in africa, middle east, subcontinent, and european wars. IMHO People using the .303 were not as prone to war crimes and genocide (with notable exceptions) as were users of the 8mm and that is where the death toll really mounts up.