The 'ideal' sniper rifle... whoda thunk?

[Azaziah]

Hello everyone! I am pretty new here, as a poster, but I really enjoy the knowledge and ‘High Road’ attitude on this board. Great forum. I Live in the sticks in MN, fortunate enough that my commute time to the range is as long as it takes to walk to the back deck.

I have a question for you folks...

I have never been in the military, but I get to live it vicariously a bit through my brother. He is twelve years younger than I, and will forever be ‘Little Brother’ to me. He just got back from his third ‘field trip’ to the sandbox, and is moving from Benning to Bragg for some additional training.

We were talking by phone yesterday as he was making the drive from Georgia to his new home in North Carolina, and the conversation inevitably turns to firearms.

I shoot often, and am a decent shot, but I have only been deadly when it comes to bagging a deer or a paper target...

...My little bro' is a sniper for the Rangers. When he talks guns, I listen.

So I asked him what he thought the ideal weapon was for sniping. Without hesitating he said .300 – I was surprised. From my Tactical Armchair, I thought he’d say .50 cal or something... bigger is better?

So I ask you High-Roaders: What do you think? I know that there are different circumstances that make different weapons ideal, but my simple question got a simple answer.

I’m sure you can give me a more complicated one.

 

[kellyj00]

saw something on futureweapons about the 'shytech" not sure of the spelling.

It shoots it's own brand new .408 round, and they were putting holes in 1/4 inch steel at 1500 yards (i think it was 1500) they sighted in the scope at 300 yards.

 

[Azaziah]

I mentioned the .408 to my brother... he said he had not fired it yet.

 

[Headless]

A good friend of mine sent me the link the the chey-tac .408 a couple days ago. He is saving up to get the civilian variant. He was a marine (went through desert storm) scout sniper and according to him he used to fire the .50 fairly often. He was salivating over the .408 chey-tach. The electronics package on that thing is pretty sick.

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn63-e.htm

For the truly interested, here's a direct link to their whitepaper.
http://www.cheytac.com/White Paper2007.pdf

The CheyTac® Cartridge
was developed to fill the
gap between the 338 Lapua and the .50 BMG, yet the
downrange characteristics outperform the best .50 BMG
projectiles. The projectiles are manufactured by Lost River
Ballistic Technologies™ and are designed using PRODAS
software. The projectiles are CNC, lathe turned, projectiles of
a copper/nickel alloy. The 419grain projectile has a
supersonic range of 2200 yards+ at standard air conditions.
A second projectile is available - the 305grain projectile is
designed for a high velocity near range application. The
average ballistic co-efficient of the 419 projectile is .945
over 3500 meters.

...

The tactical computer provides the following solutions:
° Elevation and windage settings in MOA and MIL adjustments.
° Elevation and windage settings in ¼ MOA clicks.
° MIL leads for use with moving targets.
° Windage solutions. The winds are input for 3 positions on the range, at the
rifle, at maximum ordinate and at the target. Values are automatically input to
weigh each of the three settings.
° Moving target solutions are input for speed in MPH and direction from any
position on the clock.
° Danger space solutions based on the operator-input size of the critical kill
zone (30 inches on a personnel target for example). The danger space
dimension is a figure that tells the shooter the degree of accuracy required for
the range determination.
° Maximum ordinate figures.
° Downrange velocities. This is used to determine if the target is within the
supersonic range of the projectile.

...

The CheyTac® LRRS is a solid anti-personnel system to 2000 yards. The primary
intent of the .408 is as an extreme range anti-personnel system. Groups of 7” - 9” at
1000 yards, 10” at 1500 yards and 15” at 2000 yards have been consistently obtained.
Groups of 19” at 2100 yards and 29 “ at 2400 yards have also been obtained. All
groups that are up to 3000 yards are less than 1 minute of angle for vertical
dispersion.
The extreme range capability of the .408 allows the shooter to standoff at a distance that is unparalleled by any other system, including the .50 SASR. In testing at the Idaho test range, an observer at the target could not see the sniper (with no additional camouflage) in the open on the desert floor when shooting at 2000 yards. With the suppressorin place, the sniper (with no additional camouflage such as a ghillie suit) could not be seen under direct observation with binoculars. Testing of the Night Vision System has indicated that targets can be observed at ranges to 1500 yards (at 5300’ ASL, bright stars, no moon). The CNC turned projectiles are made from a hard copper/nickel alloy that has very good penetration properties. It can penetrate Level IIIA armor at 2000 yards or more. The projectile can also penetrate a cinder block wall at 500 yards and greater. It will penetrate 1” cold rolled steel at 200 yds, and .5” cold rolled at 850 yds.

The high remaining kinetic energy characteristics of the 419grain projectile make it a
very effective anti-material rifle. The .50 BMG has a higher initial muzzle energy of
11,200 ft. lbs. vs. the 408s energy of 7,700 lbs. At 700 yards however, the remaining
energy of the 408 is higher than that of the .50 caliber rifle. Ranges past 700 yards are
the realistic engagement-range for anti-material rifles.
The .408s 419grain projectile will defeat any material that the .50 BMG can defeat
except those targets that require an explosive projectile. While the round of choice is
the Raufoss for anti-material operations, there is a strong argument for use of solid
projectiles for many of the material targets. Material targets such as surface to surface
missiles can be easily engaged and defeated by the use of solid projectiles.

Looks like they run between 3500 and 15 grand depending on electronics package and model. Ammo might be a bit expensive and hard to find.

 

[whited]

.

Whoa.



An inch of steel at 200 yds.

 

[Headless]

Yeh. Half in. of cold rolled @ 850yds is pretty sick too, heh

 

[bogie]

Campers, you gotta carry that pig...

I'd rather schlep a 12 pound .308 or .300, and accept the distance limitations. Leave the "crew served" stuff in static positions on base.

100 rounds of ammo for a .308 weighs... Oh heck, I'm lazy...

16800 grains just for the bullets. At 7,000 grains/pound, you're schleppin' over two pounds of lead, plus the brass, etc.

70000 grains just for the bullets in the .50... Right at 10 pounds of lead. That's about 4-5x more for 100 rounds for the .50. Add in the brass, and I'm guessing 15x or so...

 

[Azaziah]

Yup, you gotta carry it...

A sniper has to get in and back OUT of whatever trouble he caused...

Getting in is sometimes a lot easier.

 

[EricTheBarbarian]

3000 yrds. lol thats not even fair

 

[possum]

accuracy international .338
like this!
http://www.accuracyinternational.com/

 

[Zak Smith]

There are a number of features and attributes that make a good sniper or field/practical long-range precision rifle. Some of these attributes - like caliber - need to be matched to the mission, A 12-15 lb rifle is a lot more portable, employable, and maneuverable than a 20, 25, or 30 lb sniper weapons system.

 

[JesseL]

The ideal sniper rifle:

• Hits as hard as a 50 BMG
• Recoils like a 22 rimfire
• Weighs as much as a Kel-Tec P32
• Is as loud as an air rifle
• Has the trajectory of a laser beam
• Has optics that zoom from 1X to infinity
• Shoots 0 MOA groups
• Costs nothing

You may have to compromise a little

 

[possum]

zak smith,
btw great write up in the latest combat arms, i loved it, you make it hard, that article made me want to go out and buy one. i must learn to have self control!

 

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

Folks, I'm not a sniper... I'm a hunter.

I'll spend miles of hiking in the woods. Just as a sniper has to use stealth to get near enough and locate his target. The sniper still has to lug that rifle and ammunition around. Just like the hunter. I'm looking to keep things under 15 pounds. Total. He's got other gear too.

So, what takes Gophers and punches paper well at great distances isn't nominal to take humans at even greater distances. Rule out most of the 6, 6.5 and a good many 7mm cartridges. The .30 in any of the magnum configurations has the sectional density, trajectory, kinetic energy to get the job done at long ranges while still remaining in the smaller package constraints. (much smaller than any .50) Lest we don't ignore the .338 Lapua. A very effective long range killer that will penetrate light armor under optimal circumstances.

I'd have to agree with Azasiah's younger brother -the sniper, that the .300 is still the best 'all around' sniper caliber. -Yes, I added All Around. There are several options for given situations. There are times when the .50 is better. There are times when the .223 is better suited.

Now, start the argument. Which rifle? Which actual .30 caliber cartridge? His younger brother said, ".300", so I'm assuming he's refering to .300WinMag. I get the same balistics out of my 30-338, (.338wm necked down to .30, like a 308Norma), with 10% less powder. It's a step in between the late WSM's. The 338Fed isn't quite there. This cartridge has won 1000yd matches, just like the .300wm and others have. And I'm sure there are other BR variants out there.

What's the best one?

The one that the sniper can complete the mission with.

-Steve

 

[boerseun]

A good 6.5 or 7mm cartridge should give you better SD and BC than most standard .308 caliber systems.

Different tools for different jobs....the .4XX and up calibers are generally anti-material rifles. The .30's are mostly anti-personnel.

 

[Zak Smith]

Note that the high-BC bullets in 6.5mm, 7mm, .30, and .338 all have about the same sectional density-- within 5%.

 

[Azaziah]

Steve,

Yes, he was referring to the WinMag. ;-)

'All-Around' is really the term that will give people fits...

I would want something I can carry / sneak until I am within the range of what I am carrying.

And being able to make a 1000 yard shot would not mean that I necessarily want to... if my butt is on the line, I might want to halve that distance, having to be sneakier yet...

 

[Oohrah]

Will stick with older is better !!! Pre 64 Mod 70 Win. Heavy barrel with
10X glass in the 30-06. Deadly and humps anywhere, and fits most needs.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

The ideal sniper rifle:

Hits as hard as a 50 BMG
Recoils like a 22 rimfire
Weighs as much as a Kel-Tec P32
Is as loud as an air rifle
Has the trajectory of a laser beam
Has optics that zoom from 1X to infinity
Shoots 0 MOA groups
Costs nothing

You may have to compromise a little

Not when you are using the Phased Sniper-Plasma rifle in the 40-watt range!
That chey-tac sounds pretty exciting. I'll stick with my lightweight 7-08 model 700 for humping up and down canyons all day during deer season. For areas where more than 600 yards is probable, those .408s sound like a nice tool.

 

[Caimlas]

Yeah, but I bet you can only shoot it like 5 times before your right arm gets knocked off at the shoulder. That's a lot of energy!

 

[rangerruck]

from what i have r3ead in the past, the minimum threshhold idealy is a bullet, weighing at least 180 grains, traveling at a minimum of 3000 fps from the muzzle. So a 300 winmag actually fills the bill here. also , the rounds are common enough, not too expensive, and can be fired from a rifle that does not need it's own jack to lift. Plus you get downrange, about 200 yds extra useful trajectory over the 308, once you start to pass 800 yards.

 

[Zak Smith]

Here is data for some of the loads under discussion. They are sorted from best to worst by the most important parameter for making long-range hits: windage.

Also note that there are some much, much better LR loads than the standard M118LR (.308) and 190gr SMK (.300WM).

_Bullet_           _BC_ _MV_         0     300     600     900    1200    1500 | YARDS
338LM 300         0.77* 2700 >    0.00    3.40   14.39   34.41   65.23  108.87 | wind (inches)
338LM 250         0.675 2950 >    0.00    3.44   14.62   35.10   66.86  112.29 | wind (inches)
7RM 180 VLD       0.698 2850 >    0.00    3.49   14.80   35.48   67.48  113.04 | wind (inches)
7RM 168 VLD       0.640 3000 >    0.00    3.54   15.14   36.48   69.78  117.69 | wind (inches)
300WM 210gr VLD   0.640 2850 >    0.00    3.82   16.32   39.40   75.48  127.14 | wind (inches)
260 139           0.620 2820 >    0.00    4.01   17.19   41.61   79.96  134.88 | wind (inches)
300WM 190gr SMK   0.53* 2950 >    0.00    4.42   19.16   47.03   91.92  157.51 | wind (inches)
308 155           0.508 2850 >    0.00    4.90   21.32   52.60  102.81  174.78 | wind (inches)
M118LR            0.51* 2600 >    0.00    5.73   25.11   62.42  121.79  203.28 | wind (inches)

338LM 300         0.77* 2700 >   -0.00    3.76   12.05   22.09   34.12   48.65 | drop (moa)
338LM 250         0.675 2950 >   -0.00    2.99   10.05   18.80   29.49   42.67 | drop (moa)
7RM 180 VLD       0.698 2850 >   -0.00    3.28   10.83   20.13   31.43   45.28 | drop (moa)
7RM 168 VLD       0.640 3000 >   -0.00    2.87    9.78   18.43   29.12   42.46 | drop (moa)
300WM 210gr VLD   0.640 2850 >   -0.00    3.33   11.07   20.77   32.81   47.89 | drop (moa)
260 139           0.620 2820 >   -0.00    3.45   11.45   21.55   34.20   50.19 | drop (moa)
300WM 190gr SMK   0.53* 2950 >   -0.00    3.12   10.74   20.71   33.74   51.00 | drop (moa)
308 155           0.508 2850 >   -0.00    3.48   11.86   22.98   37.76   57.48 | drop (moa)
M118LR            0.51* 2600 >   -0.00    4.49   14.87   28.86   47.73   72.89 | drop (moa)

338LM 300         0.77* 2700 >    2700    2413    2143    1892    1657    1451 | velocity (fps)
338LM 250         0.675 2950 >    2950    2606    2288    1994    1724    1486 | velocity (fps)
7RM 180 VLD       0.698 2850 >    2850    2524    2222    1943    1685    1460 | velocity (fps)
7RM 168 VLD       0.640 3000 >    3000    2635    2297    1988    1704    1457 | velocity (fps)
300WM 210gr VLD   0.640 2850 >    2850    2496    2170    1870    1599    1369 | velocity (fps)
260 139           0.620 2820 >    2820    2457    2124    1820    1547    1320 | velocity (fps)
300WM 190gr SMK   0.53* 2950 >    2950    2519    2128    1772    1462    1218 | velocity (fps)
308 155           0.508 2850 >    2850    2408    2011    1655    1360    1146 | velocity (fps)
M118LR            0.51* 2600 >    2600    2173    1792    1457    1202    1044 | velocity (fps)

 

[wheelgunslinger]

The latest neato whizbang gadgets for precision a/p work are really interesting to watch and learn about. But, I always think back to guys in previous times who made more out of less.

I'm hard pressed to consider what the perfect weapon for a precision rifleman would be.

 

[trainwreck100]

Depends on how good you are, I'd imagine that for many applications a .22 short would be ideal...I've taken far more game with a .22 than I have with a bigger rifle, and all but two of those shots actually required something bigger, however, .50's could be handy sometimes too. How about one in every cartridge Federal makes...if they don't make one, you probably don't need it.

 

[Geno]

Custom rifle in 6.5 X 284. Buy the video The 1-mile Shot. It's good!!! For mine, I plan to stick to a .260 Rem. I'll never fire beyond 800 to 1,000 yards if that far. Most of my shots (hunting whitetail deer and varmints) will be closer than 500 yards. I simply cannot justify anything other than this. I am thinking of a DPMS 24" non-tappered barrel, STS in .260 Rem. Still at the planning phase. Edit to add, even in competitions that I have looked into the shots seem to be limited to 1,000 yards.