The 'ideal' sniper rifle... whoda thunk?

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sign me up with Doc2005 ...

I have seen the exact rifle he describes make double taps at 1000 yds on a standard silhouette target in favorable wind conditions. Not too shabby for something under $3000. Granted, its no Ma Deuce but a good shooter can really make that set-up work on un-armored targets.
 
Azaziah,

As far as what "cartridge" makes for the ideal sniper rifle, there are alot of possibilities. The crucial factors are the availability of: quality, high BC bullets in the caliber you select, quality brass with a case capacity high enough to drive high BC bullets at 2850-3000fps, and if you don't reload, factory match ammo. If you don't reload, you REALLY shortchange yourself and limit your choices. If you reload, then there are many chamberings that you can have a sniper-type rifle made up in. Personally, I believe everyone should have a .308, but I will be the first to admit that it is far from being "the ideal sniper rifle".

Don
 
All boxes ticked

Yeah, I saw that chey-tach/shytech thing on future weapons (downloaded from demonoid.com). It seemed to be very desirable, but then I read JesseL's requisites, and had to think again...

As an outsider, and looking at things from a purely physics-based point of view, I have considered what JesseL said:

JesseL said:
The ideal sniper rifle:

* Hits as hard as a 50 BMG
* Recoils like a 22 rimfire
* Weighs as much as a Kel-Tec P32
* Is as loud as an air rifle
* Has the trajectory of a laser beam
* Has optics that zoom from 1X to infinity
* Shoots 0 MOA groups
* Costs nothing

You may have to compromise a little
Click to expand...

...and I have come up with the ideal rifle:
A stolen portable laser, above class 4 (military spec). Of course, for my argument to work, "hits as hard as" needs to be equated with "does at least as much damage as". (oh, "stolen" is so it meets the last criteria on JesseL's list)

Still, I think that everything else is perfect. :)

I've seen footage of lasers chopping holes through concrete walls and thick steel, so I'm sure floppy flesh would be no trouble at 3000 yards +
 
I'll throw in my extremely unqualified $0.02

This is a cliche, but very true. And that is, that people are too much into the gear and not enough into the skills, training and practice.

Reading about snipers and the history of sniping, the vast majority of snipers and sniping done in the past, by small and great snipers alike, wasn't usually done with anything special when it comes to a rifle. At least by today's standards. What the average joe can find locally is far and above superior to the vast majority of what real snipers in serious wars used to rack up high body counts.

We're a tad bit spoiled. I'd rather have a totally reliable 1-1.5moa rifle than a lesser reliable .5moa rifle. Now, both would be even better. But how many people can actually hold MOA from field positions? That's really hard to do, and no, I'm not some novice shooter. From what I see at the range, most of these guys with $2,000 sub-moa rigs cannot tell me the dope for their load at 500 yards. Something fundamentally wrong with that. In my opinion, the better shooter/sniper would be the guy with a factory rifle that has serious intimate knowledge of how his load works in his rifle, at all ranges, in most conditions than a guy with the most high end gear, but is clueless about what really matters. We all know that many highly successful snipers in the past used rifles that are less accurate than many off the shelf rifles sold today selling for less than $400.

I just like to remind myself that sniping is not a series of gear, but rather an act or a mission. A set of actions and a mindset/behavior. Anything can be used for sniping. AK-47's were used in Vietnam and today in Iraq. Sure, not the most ideal - but it isn't about the gear, it's about the tactics.

I don't fancy myself any kind of sniper or tactical shooter. So I make life easier for myself and I configure my rifle for that which will maximize my personal entertainment and fun at the range - which is usually shooting off a bench like 95% of everyone else. Saves a lot of money, and works out to being better in many other ways.

Like ZAK says about getting the gear to suit your mission. My mission: FUN. That has significant implications for the configuration of the rifle.
 
Yeah you have a point, several of the best snipers from WW2 used Mosins (one didn't even use a scope), and we all know Carlos Hathcock and his Winchester 70, It is the person firing that makes up a lot of the shot, in contrast for very long shots (like Rob Furlongs recent shot in Afghanistan) you need some power, so basically training and the tools for whatever situation you are in.
 
Zak... is 7RM = 7mm Remington Magnum? There are so many 7mm variants out there I just wanted to be sure. I don't shoot my 7mm Mag much; but I wasn't aware there were bullets out there with that kind of BC for 7mm.
 
LutherBlissett said:
As an outsider, and looking at things from a purely physics-based point of view, I have considered what JesseL said:
Click to expand...
...and I have come up with the ideal rifle:
A stolen portable laser, above class 4 (military spec).
Click to expand...

A swing and a miss. You met every criteria but one, weight. I seriously doubt that your class 4 laser is going to weigh less than 6.6 oz.
 
First things first:

Just a few comments:

If you don't have a zero or know the rifle, ammo, range, nothing is going to work very well.

If you can't read wind, there is no point in shooting at something over 300 yards.

At 3000 yards, ANY optic you use is going to be nearly useless for individual targets. A person at 3K is going to be too small to see at low power, and more magnification only compresses the mirage and distortion between the shooter and target. You might could hit a truck-sized target at 3000 yards...but people moving around are going to be little blobs of color.

What's working is probably whats best: A 30 cal rifle with a zeroed optic. The Armed forces are using a 308 with a 10 power scope. That's pretty good.

My choice for the current CHEAPEST sniper rifle would be a K31 shooting Swiss military ammo with a clamp-on scope mount and a Leupold. The optimum would be a Remington Police light tactical rifle in 308 with a Leupold.
 
Your gun doesn't work very well when it's empty. ;)

Some people may have to be concerned with ammo availability. I reload so it is not a big issue but for some shooters 308 or 300 WM may be the best choice because it will probably be on the shelf at their local gun shop.

For the military I would think 308 would be the 'ideal' choice based on ammo availability.
 
Zak... is 7RM = 7mm Remington Magnum?
Click to expand...
Yes. 7WSM will give basically identical performance (based on the 300WSM case, whereas 7RM is shorter than 300WM).

The downside to the really overbore cartridges such a 6.5-284, 7RM, etc, is short barrel life. Some 7RM barrels are toast at 2000 rounds. 308 is reasonably competent to 800 yards and barrel life is 8,000-10,000 rounds.

-z
 
In a military environment, there a lot to be said for sticking with 308. 300 WM get's you a slight advantage and adds a couple hundred yards supersonic, but then you have your own logistical train to worry about. In reality, you already do, because you are probably using M118LR special ball, but it's always nice to have the option of borrowing M80 in a SHTF scenario.

BTW, the M24 on built on a long action so that it can be converted to 300 WM just in case.

The trend these days seems to be towards 338 Lapua, which has a realadvantage over 308 and 300. There are some scary high BC 338 bullets available, but the rifle is still man portable. 408 Cheytac and similar are not luggable for any significant distance.

Finally, the Army is moving towards the SASS - the semi auto sniper rifle in the from of the M110 SR-25 derivative. So it's back to 308. Walther did nuild the WA-2000 in 300WM, but I'm not aware of any other semi sniper rifle in that caliber ...yet. I have heard rumors of a semi 338 Lapua from AICS, and since they have a new semi 50 AMR, that makes sense.

Anyone have any more details?
 
It's funny how, despite carrying rifles chambered in such weak calibers, German snipers, British Snipers, American Snipers, French Snipers, Russian Snipers, and lots of others managed to effectively manage anti-personnel activities in various wars, climates, and locations throughout the world.

30/06, 308, 8mm, 7mm (7x57), 303, and 7.62x54 all have done extremely well in the capable hands of a trained sniper. It's all about what's between his ears.
 
BTW, the M24 on built on a long action so that it can be converted to 300 WM just in case.
Click to expand...

That's been the Army's plan for years ("decades" may be better, I'm not sure when the idea first entered the equation, but it's been out there for a long time). (If I'm not mistaken, the USMC's M40 is not built with the potential for increase to 300 Win Mag, but may be wrong.)

The main problem, from a logistical perspective (besides possible ammunition issues that have already been mentioned), is that 300 Win Mag has much shorter barrel life than a .308 gun. Deployed in a war zone with zero or so rounds through the gun to begin with, probably not an issue either way. But on the training side of things, 300 Win Mag guns are more expensive to employ (which is part of the reason why the planned switch to 300 Win Mag has never really happened, outside of some special units).

Finally, the Army is moving towards the SASS - the semi auto sniper rifle in the from of the M110 SR-25 derivative. So it's back to 308. Walther did nuild the WA-2000 in 300WM, but I'm not aware of any other semi sniper rifle in that caliber ...yet. I have heard rumors of a semi 338 Lapua from AICS, and since they have a new semi 50 AMR, that makes sense.
Click to expand...

I think if the money were there and unlimited, we'd see a move to mixed inventory -- semi-auto .308 sniper/DMR sort of rifles with 300 Win Mag bolt guns for more classically "sniper" sort of work. I'm not sure if we'll ever see that universally adopted, though, due to the costs involved (to include the question of whether every sniper in the Big Army needs his own semi-auto and bolt gun).
 
Will stick with older is better !!! Pre 64 Mod 70 Win. Heavy barrel with
10X glass in the 30-06. Deadly and humps anywhere, and fits most needs.
Click to expand...


Ya know...IIRC that little combo actually worked pretty well for a troopie by the name of Carlos...much to the detriment to some Viet-Cong ossifers. ;)
 
I dont mean this as an insult to your brother or any other servicemen, but you have to look at their opinions in context, and take it with a grain of salt...

Theres a difference between being a good shooter, and being knowledgeable about firearms. Accurate shooting comes from training and practice. Knowledge comes from exposure and experience with a large, diverse group of firearms.

I'm sure your brother is very, very proficient with his issued weapons because he uses them so often, but that does not mean that he has much, if any, experience with non-issue weaponry. And without experience with a wide variety of weaponry, you cant draw meaningful conclusions about whats "ideal" or "best". Soldiers often say that whatever they have is best, due to lack of experience with anything else... though through no fault of their own, because they dont have the flexibility of choosing what they carry.

It would be analogous to asking a Naval Aviator who flies F/A-18's whether a Cessna or Piper Cub is a better aircraft.

Disclaimer: I make no claim of being a good shooter nor a firearms expert. I'm simply playing Devil's Advocate by including some logical reasoning to the discussion.
 
Agree HorseSoldier.

The Army and Marines seem to have fairly different views on sniping anyway. Most people who think in terms of snipers look at examples like Mawhinney and Hathcock. The top Vietnam sniper was actually an Army sniper named Adelbert Waldron III, about whom very little is published. He made most of his kills (109-113 depending on source quoted) with an M21m starlight scope and supressor at relatively modest range. Some have suggested that Army snipers racked up extremely high kill numbers using the same techniques, but the army downplayed their effectiveness for fear of backlash over the way their snipers were employed - in a rather non-sporting manner.

The Army has viewed their snipers more as support weapons to dispatch high value target at moderate ranges where precision fire is required. The Marines have looked at their snipers as indeopendant tolls that perform both scout and sniper roles, typically working independantly of larger maneuver units.

The different philosphies require different weapons. The SASS is a good fit for Army philosophy - shooting at multiple high value targets in support of regular maneuver units, while the very long range, super precision rifle (typically with reduced firepower) is a better fit for the marine sniper who is out hunting for a specific target, frequently without benefit of support.
 
The ideal sniper rifle:

* Hits as hard as a 50 BMG
* Recoils like a 22 rimfire
* Weighs as much as a Kel-Tec P32
* Is as loud as an air rifle
* Has the trajectory of a laser beam
* Has optics that zoom from 1X to infinity
* Shoots 0 MOA groups
* Costs nothing
Click to expand...


I'll take 5 of them
 
It is a pretty general question. The term "Sniper" allows us to envision different roles. It also lets the news media use the word however they want to. If I'm not mistaken the average LE/Police sniper shot is 70 yards. .50 BMG would be overkill. .308 is quite popular in that role. I would guess most military sniping is longer range. I've heard about the extremely long shots. Now I'm curious about the shorter ones. I guess the role would definitely dictate the rifle.

If I were starting out I'd look to one the established rounds to make life easier. One thing for sure is I will never be a sniper. I do have an interest in the craft and find certain aspects of military sniper history interesting.

Later,
WNTFW
 
I'm sure your brother is very, very proficient with his issued weapons because he uses them so often, but that does not mean that he has much, if any, experience with non-issue weaponry. And without experience with a wide variety of weaponry, you cant draw meaningful conclusions about whats "ideal" or "best". Soldiers often say that whatever they have is best, due to lack of experience with anything else... though through no fault of their own, because they dont have the flexibility of choosing what they carry.
Click to expand...

I will note that if his brother is a sniper in one of the Ranger battalions he's probably better versed than many military snipers -- the Rangers have some impressive toys of their own, and he's probably also had some exposure to the toys the really cool kids get to use.
 
the 300 winmag, is a good jump off point, because it fits into the parameters of what you want for a good long range cartridge, which is minimally , you want a bullet of at least 180 grains, moving at least 3100 fps , from the muzzle. A 180 or 190 grain winmag bullet can do this easily, and with factory loads.
 
he aint heavy. he's my laser...

6.6 oz.

hmm...

the laser itself probably weighs considerably less than that (although admittedly a typical cutting laser setup will weigh in at 350 pounds (158kg))

it's just a question of having lightweight capacitors in his kit bag, and a solar charging system, so the sniper has to camp out in the sun for 3 hours to get one shot, but at least he doesn't have to carry batteries or a generator

AHAHAHAH

you'd need such a low duty cycle to kill a person within any visual range that there'd be no need for heavy cooling systems, as the thing simply wouldn't have time to heat up much, so all in all it would be a practical possibility
 
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