**** the Law: Illegal Concealed Carry

[rock jock]

If I am not asking their permission, why do I have to BUY the permit?

When you go to the grocery store, do you first ask the grocer permission to purhase a loaf of bread, or is it a rather simple transaction taking place? That is what a permit under the shall-issue system is.

I never claimed that a shall issue permit system is perfect, but it is far from the egregious violation that the author makes it out to be.

 

[TallPine]

I'm sorry, I would have posted a reply to this thread, but my "free speech" permit expired and I had to go down to the courthouse to get it renewed.

 

[rock jock]

If a law is unconstitutional, it's null and void from the moment it is passed

Try arguing that before a judge.

I'm sorry, I would have posted a reply to this thread, but my "free speech" permit expired and I had to go down to the courthouse to get it renewed.

Hey, I'm with you all the way. I don't think we need a permit either. I just don't think it is a big deal from a practical sense. From a philosophical sense, yeah, it goes against the grain of the Constitution. But we live in a real world with real rules and real consequences and it is only a minor inconvenience to me compared to the many real outrages in our 2A struggle. If you want to carry w/o a permit, I say more power to you. I hope you never get caught. But if you do, be prepared to pay the piper.

 

[Intune]

I just don't think it is a big deal from a practical sense. From a philosophical sense, yeah, it goes against the grain of the Constitution. But we live in a real world with real rules and real consequences and it is only a minor inconvenience to me compared to the many real outrages in our 2A struggle.

I don’t know of any right-to-carry state that will wave the application fee for a CCL or the required class. If you are poor, tough luck. If I am in error in this, please correct me. When did a RIGHT become a matter of convenience or lack thereof?

For me, the Second Amendment exactly as it was written is the real world. In fact, I believe it is what keeps our small chunk on this earth from becoming an unreal nightmare of totalitarian rule. With each additional strap of the muzzle and constraint levied against this God-Given Right OUR power is diminished while theirs is strengthened. Each & every time, bit by bit.

Pay the Piper indeed. I fear we shall…

Alas, alas for Hamelin!
There came into many a burgher's pate
A text which says that heaven's gate
Hopes to the rich at as easy rate
As the needle's eye takes a camel in!

The mayor sent East, West, North and South,
To offer the Piper, by word of mouth,
Wherever it was men's lot to find him,
Silver and gold to his heart's content,
If he'd only return the way he went,
And bring the children behind him.

But when they saw 'twas a lost endeavor,
And Piper and dancers were gone for ever,
They made a decree that lawyers never
should think their records dated duly
If, after the day of the month and year,
These words did not as well appear,
"And so long after what happened here
On the Twenty-second of July,
Thirteen hundred and seventy-six:''
And the better in memory to fix

The place of the children's last retreat,
They called it, the Pied Piper's Street --
Where any one playing on pipe or tabor,
Was sure for the future to lose his labour.
Nor suffered they hostelry or tavern
To shock with mirth a street so solemn;
But opposite the place of the cavern
They wrote the story on a column,

And on the great church-window painted
The same, to make the world acquainted
How their children were stolen away,
And there it stands to this very day…



Robert Browning 1888


For us, the piping has begun…

 

[tyme]

[blockquote] Well, that is one perspective. Another is that you are demanding it. The fact remains that "permission" implies the ability to say "no", which they cannot do.[/blockquote]
They can and do. The only way I can get permission is to pay them $140 and the cost of a training class I don't need. Or $117 for a florida permit that I have paperwork for but haven't bothered with, which brings up the next point...

The permit and training cost is not my main problem with it, anyway. The reason I don't have one yet is because of all the places where carry is prohibited even if you have the permit. Therefore, it is a permit. You cannot carry in places they decide you shouldn't even if you're Ghandi, Yoda, or the Dalai Lama.

Furthermore, while getting the permit may not forfeit your RKBA, in TX if I'm not mistaken there are specific statutes for ccw holders who carry into verboten places. The crime may be the same with or without a permit, but I don't like the fact that I'm subjecting myself to a seperate set of laws by getting a permit.

Last, the "get out of jail free" effect of CCW licenses on traffic tickets. I realize it would be personally advantageous for me to get one for that reason, but the overall ethics of the whole thing are terrible. Speed limits are silly and should be raised, not enforced selectively if citizens fail to show proof of "goodness."

 

[Ian]

Try arguing that before a judge.

I don't decide what to do based on what some judge might think of it. My life is my own, and I have the right to live it the way I see fit, not the way someone else wants me to live it. How often can you sacrifice principles for convenience before you have no principles left?

Like I said before, it may not be the safest or easiest way, but it's the right way.

 

[Tamara]

It's been said more eloquently...

 

[revlar]

I find no validity in blatant anarchy.

Also, as a citizen of Missouri, Mr. Gillespie should know that while certain people may be trying to band together "to prevent you carrying anywhere other than inside your house" - under the law they simply can't "prevent" it. Even carrying in a prohibited area (if discovered) will only result in; 1) you will be asked to leave, and should you refuse to leave the premises and an LEO must be called, 2) you are given what amounts to a traffic ticket. There is no arrest, there is no criminal prosecution whatsoever - even after the third such incident. Yes, you may be required to pay a fine and may have your LTC suspended for a time - but any and all such attempted "prohibitions" are FAR from amounting to anything even remotely resembling "prevention". After all, "concealed" carry is the key. If you do it right - even where you shouldn't be doing it (under the law) - how would anyone even know? If you get caught and they ask you to leave - leave. No harm no foul. Besides, at that point, you are no longer carrying concealed and then the entire point of the act itself is defeated. Nearly all of the places where concealed carry would be prohibited in Missouri are locales I rarely (if ever) frequent anyway. I find the law to be, as a whole, quite well written.

Of course, such fine points of any law are completely lost on an avowed anarchist.

 

[S_O_Laban]

I'm with revlar on this. This law is very well written and has many things that are much more in favor of the permit holder than most other states first attempts. The guys that drafted this law did their homework. I would prefer an AK style law but this is so much better than what we had in MO before, I can't really find too much to complain about in this law.

 

[Dashunde]

My only complaint with our new law is... it is not yet enacted!

 

[rock jock]

How often can you sacrifice principles for convenience before you have no principles left?

I don't see it that way. I see it as the price I pay for living in a country with representative govt. and a population of sheep (mostly). I am not willing to compromise on my convictions, but I am on my opinions. My CHL falls under the latter.

 

[oldfart]

While we're talking philosophy and reality, we shouldn't forget about eventuality.

I've watched this country go from a relatively free society to what can only be called a "soft" police state. We have gone from a point where I used to carry my rifle to school on the bus to a time where kids are being suspended from school for drawing pictures of guns. It will get worse.

Any simple study of past governments or civilizations will show examples of how governments devolve from freedom to tyranny. Don't be fooled by a few CCW laws around the country, our government-- our civilization-- is well on the road to tyranny and there are no turnarounds short of violent revolution.

While you're reading about those other governments, read also about what the first act of a conquering army has always been when it marches into a country. From the ancient Samarians to the more recent Nazis, they disarmed the newly conquered people. In Europe, when the Nazi army entered a town or country, they went to the seat of government and confiscated the lists of gunowners, making the disarmament a lot easier and more complete.

Did those gunowners forsee the lists being used in that manner? Not likely. They were just doing what the law required of them so that they could legally own a gun. Were there other gunowners who didn't show up on those lists? Of course, but they were 'outlaws'. They had been keeping guns without the knowledge of their local government. When the time came to fight back against the Nazi occupiers, who was armed, the good citizens who had applied for and been given licenses or the outlaws who flaunted the law and thus risked their positions and freedom?

I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't need to know who is or isn't carrying. When the day comes (hopefully long after I'm gone) that some government official starts going down the list of CCW holders to pick up their guns, those not on the list will be the heros. Don't think that they'll be satisfied with just the guns you have listed either. In this country especially, gunowners are known for owning more than one piece. If you have one, they'll make life insufferable until they have them all.

There is only one way...

 

[cpileri]

careful now

Dear THR-ers,
"there are no turnarounds short of violent revolution"

I must warn you that that kind of talk is now forbidden by the government. Not on paper, but it is de facto forbidden in that you can now be perceived to be a threat to the nation- a terrorist, picked up (if you aren't murdered resisting arrest), held indefinitely, and maybe given a trial.
But don't get your hopes up.
And admitting you carry illegally: WHOA! I cannot believe my luck. You guys are dropping a whole pay-raise worth of arrests right in my lap. Thanks! In this time of restructuring from DoT to DHS, we are all concerned about our jobs being cut. This is just the excuse I and my comrades need to ruff up literally ANYONE we choose on the suspicion of being carrying an illegal weapon!
This is also EXACTLY what our socialist masters (oops. Did I say...er...write that out loud. Silly me.) in congress need to be able to pass laws, which I am exempt from of course, that 'protect the children's right to be free of fear that someone around them is secretly armed with a cop/baby-killing-armor-piercing-hollowpoint-explosive-can-take-down-the-airplane-your-mommy-is-on-at-2-miles-away-untraceable-50 bmg-streetsweeping-military-style-semi-automatic-assault-pocket-Saturday-night-special' and get EVERY SINGLE GUN out of the hands of private citizens! Finally.
Just fair warning,
Agent Schmuckatelli, BATFe

 

[rock jock]

I've watched this country go from a relatively free society to what can only be called a "soft" police state.

Really? Well, I've got news for you. In the "good old days", at least in Texas and several dozen other states, it was completely illegal to carry a concealed handgun, unless you were a good buddy (read "contributor") to the local sheriff or politicos. Now, if you got caught, the LEO might be a good guy and give you a wink and a nod and send you on your way. OTOH, he might not and you might end up with a criminal record and some big legal fees. Point is, whether or not you got hauled through the grinder was entirely up to the discretion of LE and the local DA. Now, in this "soft" police state, I send in some paperwork, pay what equates to $35/year, and get a little card that keeps me out of jail, entirely outside the discretion of the dreaded big brother "police state". I don't have to worry about getting thrown in jail if a strong wind picks up my shirt and a blissninnie freaks out at the sight of a gun. If I am forced to use my gun in self-defense, I don't have to worry about being in more trouble than the POS that I shot. I can carry one or more of whatever handgun I want, whenever I want, and with very few exceptions, wherever I want. If that is a move for the worse, I hate to see what a move for the better would be.

 

[ChickenHawk]

Personally, I think rock jock just nailed it. I agree completely.

Cheers,
ChickenHawk

 

[TallPine]

Agent Schmuckatelli:

You understand, of course, that this is all just a purely academic discussion.

 

[oldfart]

Rock Jock, I'm not going to flame you or belittle you in any way. I don't mean to suggest that you're at all ignorant, but I don't think you know what freedom is-- or was! I think you are a product of our modern society and you just don't know what I'm talking about.

I remember a time when carrying a concealed gun wasn't a big thing unless (and until) you used it to commit a crime. I remember a time (only 40 years ago) when I walked into a supermarket in Thousand Oaks, California with a pistol on my belt and bought a bottle of pop. I remember a time when I stored a Winchester Model 70 rifle in my locker on the Naval Station at Adak, Alaska. I remember a time when a county dog catcher pulled a .45 on my dad and got his teeth knocked out and his gun tossed in the creek. Later, two deputies came by to talk to dad and they didn't even write him a ticket.

Today, the state wants us to get a permit to carry, I doubt I could even get across the parking lot of that market in California with a gun on my belt, the U.S. Navy takes a dim view of any of it's men even owning private arms and my dad would be cut down by a SWAT team before he got out of the house.

Sure, there are some advantages to the world we now live in, but anything that tends to make the government bigger, more efficient or more intrusive is just bad! Before Texas passed their CCW law the only thing keeping you from carrying was plain, throat-gripping, pants-wetting FEAR; fear of government! I don't know what Webster says, but in my book, fear of government defines tyranny!

Over the years, your frog has been boiled. That's not your fault, you had no idea it was happening because you had no point of reference to compare to. I doubt there is any single person or entity that is planning the downfall of America, but that downfall is coming, and it's coming over the bodies of a lot of boiled frogs and the very few of us who jumped out of the pot when we could.

Folks, this train is on a downhill grade, the brakes are gone and there's a sharp turn at the bottom of the hill. Enjoy the ride while you can. Keep voting for the 'lesser of two evils' and writing to those noblemen we elected to represent us. Not only is the system broken, but so are the tools we relied upon to fix it. Whether we succumb to Socialism or Islam, we will succumb. Anybody who can read history and believe otherwise is seriously overdosed on Soma.

 

[rock jock]

Rock Jock, I'm not going to flame you or belittle you in any way. I don't mean to suggest that you're at all ignorant, but I don't think you know what freedom is-- or was! I think you are a product of our modern society and you just don't know what I'm talking about.

I remember a time when carrying a concealed gun wasn't a big thing unless (and until) you used it to commit a crime. I remember a time (only 40 years ago) when I walked into a supermarket in Thousand Oaks, California with a pistol on my belt and bought a bottle of pop. I remember a time when I stored a Winchester Model 70 rifle in my locker on the Naval Station at Adak, Alaska. I remember a time when a county dog catcher pulled a .45 on my dad and got his teeth knocked out and his gun tossed in the creek. Later, two deputies came by to talk to dad and they didn't even write him a ticket.

OF, are you saying that carrying concealed wasn't illegal then, or that people just didn't care? If it was the former, you were relying on the good graces of the local LE, and still subject to their discretion as to whether or not they would enforce that particular law. The only frame of reference I have is Texas, and (1) I have no doubt that that was true even here, (2) it was still illegal, and (3) that is not my idea of freedom.

 

[tyme]

We should not be afraid of the law, since we are sovereign and we create law through our political will. Fear is the only competition to our morally justified right to be armed.
[blockquote]I can carry one or more of whatever handgun I want, whenever I want, and with very few exceptions, wherever I want.[/blockquote]
This does a good number of people no good at all. You can't carry any place that has a bar. You can't exercise your RKBA while you exercise your right to vote. You can't carry at secondary schools or colleges. You can't carry if someone puts up a 30.06 sign even if it's a public place or a public establishment. In short, you, I, and the Dalai Lama are surfs in TX.

 

[oldfart]

Rock Jock, you're right-- it was illegal then too, but no one cared. Sure, we were relying on the local sheriff to look the other way, but if he hadn't he'd have been voted out at the next election. Of course, that was before politics had become an end unto itself and electing an official was still a choice between good men instead of choosing the lesser of two evils.

That's not saying that we always had good men running for office, but we usually had a choice between good and bad and we knew the difference. Nowadays they're all alike except for the "D" or "R" by their names and that can be interchangeable.

I don't know just where in Texas you live, but as an engineer, it's probably in or near a city. Some weekend, go out in the country and find a small town with some old men sitting around watching the world go by. Ask them what it was really like in the 20's or 30's. Don't just ask about carrying guns. Ask about how people treated each other and why they did so. It was a whole different world then. One that most modern people wouldn't recognize-- one that they (and I) will never see again.

 

[2dogs]

oldfart

Keep posting!

We need a "Steinbeck" around here.

 

[Tamara]

cpileri,

And admitting you carry illegally: WHOA! I cannot believe my luck. You guys are dropping a whole pay-raise worth of arrests right in my lap. Thanks! In this time of restructuring from DoT to DHS, we are all concerned about our jobs being cut. This is just the excuse I and my comrades need to ruff up literally ANYONE we choose on the suspicion of being carrying an illegal weapon!

Dear Agent Schmuckatelli,

Please look up the word "jurisdiction"...

Thanks,
T.



Seriously, cpileri, if you are trying to make people think with your fictional federale, you shouldn't have him threatening to arrest folks for state offenses.

 

[Erik]

He isn't supporting the 2A, folks. He's an anarchist, whose stance just happens to sound as if he does.

 

[Ian]

Who cares what label he falls under when he supports the underlying principle of freedom?

 

[Edward429451]

Old fart nailed it. You other guys who would pay to be on the safe side are in denial about the truth, period.

You don't have to pay for the excercise of a right. If you sign the paperwork for your permit, then you are bound by its rules. It's called a contract.

Without beating around the bush and saying something about avoiding dangerous places rather than carrying, how many are willing to give a definite answer to the question, "In an area of known danger, would you carry a concealed weapon even if it were illegal to do so?"

In an area of known danger (Earth), I've been carrying what agent schmuketelli calls illegal for pushing 20 years. I will continue to carry 'legally' as the spirit moves me, even if De Facto law says I can't.

Clear enough?