The 'Militia' Issue: Who's Militia, In The 'Constitutional Right', To Bear Arms?

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The United States Constitution gives each "citizen" the right (and responsibility?) to bear arms; in the context of, "a well regulated militia".

Who's militia; who's the regulator, of the regulated?

It is not explicid, but I believe "reasonable men" is implicidly presumed, and that in this Constitutional context of armed citizens; for all adults, men and woman; that the term "citizen" reasonable excludes, the legally adjudicated signifigantly mentally impaired; un-pardoned convicted felons; and those in active duty, non-militia, regular military and naval forces. That the term "citizen" in this Constitutional context includes (not otherwise excluded) volunteers; and may include, non-volunteers.

The Constitution explicidly speaks of an individual "right", that implicidly bespeaks of a collective "responsibility", to bear arms; in the context of a well regulated militia. The individual right to both arms, and militia to bear them in, is the individual citizen's "right"; not the government's right.

The governmnent's "right", more realisticly responsibility; is to "well regulate" the people's, not the government's; Constitutional context militia.

On the social-political left, is the argument, the government has the right to regulate the people's militia out of existence. It doesn't! Such would be counter productive to protecting we the people's militia in "our", not just the government's, Constitution.

On the social-political right, is the argument, that the individual "right to bear arms" militiaman (qualified citizen, male and female), has the additional right; NOT to be collectively well regulated by the government, as a militia person, or persons. Wrong!

The essence of our Constitution, both individually and collectively; is both proportion and balance. The Constitution in a larger context, for example; "balances" the governmental Executive against both the Legislative and Judicial branches; and conversly balances the Legislative against both the Judicial and Executive, also the Judicial against both Legislative and Executive. Exclusively possesed power (singular) corrupts; co-shared, balanced powers (plural) balance; balance both wanted co-operative good, and balance un-wanted conpetitive, corrupted powers.

Likewise, the Constitutional concept of the individual citizen's right to bear arms, is, and should be; balanced by the responsibility of our government to well regulate the citizen's; not the government's; we the people's militia.

To "well regulate" we the people's militia into non-existance, or into ineffectiveness, by the government of the governed; is to destroy that Constitutional concept of balance, between the government and governed. The Constitutional concept of we the people's militia exists not because of, but in spite of, our government. "Our" government, and "only" our government; not then, now, nor never, the government's government

Neither the governed, nor government; should either arrogantly openly, or secretly covertly, weigh a thumb on the American scales of justice, when weighing the balance of the we the people's right to bear arms; or the government's counter-balancing responsibility, to well regulate, that Constitutional right to bear arms, in the context of Constitutional militia.

My personal druthers: I believe our's would be a better America, if all qualified citizens, both voluntary and involutary; had government owned and issued long arms in their homes, with ample ammunition, for the ranks; and likewise side arms and amunition for their officers. This with once yearly mandatory fire arms drill; supplimented by voluntary monthly drills; even months for some, odd months for the others; and all togethor, once mandatorily, yearly.

Qualified citizens would include not otherwise disqualified U.S. male AND FEMALE citizens traditionally between the ages of 16 and 61. Consciencious objectors would be accommodated as medics, and otherwise, within their restraints, reasonably applied. That if discharged from we the people's militia, if overage 55 or more, with over twenty years honorable service; that they have the right to purchase their own, government owned and issued firearm, and hang it on; if not a 'real', then mental mantle, for those these days, lacking fireplaces.

For honorable service consciencious objectors lacking fire arms; a sincere military salute, civil handshake, and certificate of service.

The American Constitutionally constitued, we the people's militia: no 'bunk' at Bunker Hill.

Thank you ancestor Capt. David Copp, Sr., with one of three Dover, New Hampshire, companies of militia who there, then, fought the good fight. His widow, Mrs. Margaret 'Molly' Palmer Copp (daughter of Patriot Maj. Barnabas Palmer, Sr.), in her widow's pension application, said that in his last years in a an America, Copp and others helped keep free; LtCol Copp drove her nuts with his frequent account of winning three "guineas" money, from the Dover town fathers, for being the first company from Dover to reach, and engage, in the Battle of Bunker Hill; whilst British artillery atop Copp's Hill, Boston, fired at Capt. Copp and so many brave Patriot others, across the River.

William (1589-1670) and Judith Itchenor Copp (d1670 also), of said Copp's Hill, were LtCol. David Copp, Sr.'s, great, great grandparents. William the son of Thomas and second wife Isabel Gunne Copp; of Bewsall, Hatton, Warwick, England.

I salute Sirs and Madams; my American citizens, and all other's simuliarly situated; sires Patriotic.
 
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From here:
TITLE 10 > Subtitle A > PART I > CHAPTER 13 > § 311 Prev | Next

§ 311. Militia: composition and classes
How Current is This?

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
 
The United States Constitution gives each "citizen" the right (and responsibility?) to bear arms.
The Second Amendment does not "give" anyone the right to keep and bear arms.
 
The Constitution

The Constitution does not "give" the right to bear arms. It prohibits the government from infringing upon the pre-existing right. It's one of the "Inalianable" rights spoken of in the Declaration of Independence. As such it is beyond the legitimate powers of any government to give or take, they can only "infringe" upon it if and when allowed to do so.

As for who is the "militia", I've seen lots of arguments for and against including the regular military or the national Guard but it seems perfectly clear that the whole body of the able citizens is part of, if not the whole of the militia.

The second amendment cannot be construed to apply to the National Guard since that is running on federal money with federal equipment and under federal control when ever an 'emergency" is declared, and for all practical purposes is under federal control anyway. It would be nonsense to suppose the second amendment is meant to prohibit the federal government from infringing upon its own "right" to bear arms because the federal government should not need protection from itself and in any case has no rights what so ever, it has only delegated powers.
 
USC BoR 101

The Bill of Rights protects Rights of the People from abuse by
the Power and Authority of the government. "Congress shall
make no law...." sets the tone of the BoR.

"Right of the people" appears in the 1st, 2nd and 4th Amendment.
Who has the right to assemble and petition?
Who has the right to be secure against unreasonable search and seizure?
The same people who have the right to keep and bear arms.

The well-regulated militia clause is NOT a limiting or exclusionary clause:
it is an example of why the right of the people should not be infringed.

Under the US Constitution, government entities, such as the United
States, the States, the President, the Congress and the Courts have
Powers and Authorities; they do not have Rights or Privileges; only
the people have Rights or Privileges.

If the Second Amendment (1792) was about the States and the
National Guard (1905), it would read "Power or Authority of the State"
not "Right of the People."
 
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

I'll keep this simple.

The militia is the US Armed forces, in toto, who must be be regulated by US, the People, who just happen to have an inalienable, uninfringable right to keep and bear the arms with which we will regulate that militia.

It's laying out our right, to keep the military and governement in check.
 
The militia is made up of "We the People" and is not a standing army, nor the National Guard, nor the Coast Guard. The Second Amendment, sets forth in writing, one of the inalienable rights granted by the Creator, and it protects the right of "We the people" to "keep and bear arms".

The President of the United States can order deployment overseas, of a National Guard unit. That is why, they are NOT the militia.

But the President, cannot deploy a Militia member overseas. It is a civilian group, and was meant always to be.

One purpose, as set out in Article I, Section VIII, is that the militia is to be used in order to "Uphold the laws of the Union", and in the same Article, the Constitution sets out a duty for Congress to enact laws of naturalization, i.e., immigration law.

So one of the laws the Militia is supposed to enforce in time of invasion, is legal immigration, and repel illegal invasion such as the one ongoing on with Mexico, that both the President and Congress, have yet to decide to halt, due to their ongoing effort to ensure personal political capital gains.

Don't confuse "We the People" with the Army, Coast Guard, or National Guard. Although the guys and gals in the service are members of "We the people", the National Guard itself, and the U.S. Army, are not within the group of "We the people" as citizens, but a group of citizens within the Army or National Guard. It may sound like claptrap, but it is important to maintain, that the Militia is a CIVILIAN group totally, and the National Guard is a military group often used for civilian services. But the National Guard unit cannot LEGALLY under the Constitution, enforce civil law, but can enforce MARTIAL law, but I don't think we want that.

The Militia, is to be called forth, and organized, by Congress, according to Article I, Section VIII to serve the purpose the President is mistakenly wanting to use the National Guard for, but the problem is, Congress no longer believes in the American people.

And it is HILARIOUS to not hear a SINGLE solitary word from the Democrats and the Media about how the National Guard is "just a way to avoid service" nowdays. During Bush's campaign, the Natioal Guard was made the laughing stock of the military by the Democrats and the Media, because Bush was a member.

Now, they say not a word about how the National Guard members are so called "weekend warriors" (as they were referred to so disparagingly during the Bush/Kerry campaign)

PS. In other words, just because our government representatives, don't pay any attention to our originally constituted (promised in contract) system of government, doesn't mean it isn't our system of government.
 
In your post, you say the "Right" (in reality, the protection of the Right) is in context to the militia. To say "context" is to imply exclusivity.The protection of the Right in the Second Amendment is invoked for the sake of the militia but is not exclusive to it. A law abiding citizen may own a firearm for any lawful purpose he desires and that Right is protected by the Second Amendment.

The Second Amendment underwent very little debate before its ratification and what little debate there was had nothing to do with the right to keep and bare arms or the need to provide for the militia. The debate was over the type of militia. There were those who believed the militia should have been what was then known as a "select" militia. This militia would be specially trained and compensated for its service. However, it was believed by most that a "select" militia would constitute a federal standing army and therefore a threat to liberty. A select militia did exist, however, and it is this militia that evolved into what we now know as the National Guard. The militia in the Second is a "general" militia, or, a military force comprised of the general populace barring their personal arms to be utilized in times of emergancy. The term "well regulated" means to be under a superior civilian authority.
 
this discussion is useless. the so called shall not be infringed is infringed in Chicago and Washington D.C. if some people had theyre way San Francisco would be on the list as well

vote all you want it wont change anything
 
I believe a reading of the Federalist papers should clear up the original intent of the 2A.
 
"Militias, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves and include all men capable of bearing arms. To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
~Richard Henry Lee, Additional Letters from the Federal Farmer, 1788
 
endowed by our Creator

my rights come from God!!!! not a historical document.
"regulated" does not mean gov't regulation .
the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed means
the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed
 
2nd

The point above is a damn good one. The debate over the exact meaning of the 2nd is a waste of time if we are not figuring out how to assure that it has any meaning at all.
 
Bootscooter:

You write that:

"The Second Amendment underwent very little debate before its ratification and what little debate there was had nothing to do with the right to keep and bare arms or the need to provide for the militia."



When selling ratification, Edmund Pendelton (one of the Federalists) was trying to assure the Anti-Federalists in attendence at ratification, that the right of the people to assemble and petition would keep the Federal Government in check and hold back any Federal misbehavior. (As you know, this was at a time when the Federalists were not even certain they could get a Constitution establishing a Federal Government, and were debating and selling the idea in the Federalist papers, a great deal)

In response to Pendleton's statement about the First Amendment keeping government officials in check, one of the Anti-Federalists, Patrick Henry, rose up and in direct response to Pendelton's statement replied with the following words:

"...O Sir, we should have fine times, indeed, if, to punish tyrants, it were only sufficient to assemble the people! Your arms, werewith you could defend yourselves, are gone..."

I would call Mr. Henry's statement in that debate, pretty substantial, although it is very concise. He was obviously saying the first amendment rights are only enforcable, if preserved by the second amendment right of "the people" to keep and bear arms.

After the Reconstruction Congress passed the Fourteenth Amendment, John Bingham's debate made pretty clear (and passage of the Amendment made final) one of the intents of the 14th Amendment was to insure that "rights and privledges" of the people protected under the constitution, encompassed all "persons". In doing so, it assured the right to keep and bear arms was protected for Black Americans also, after the Civil War.

Thus they accomplished two things very important regarding the right of the people to keep and bear arms. They protected the Second Amendment as an INDIVIDUAL right of a person, no matter the color or status, and made clear in debate that the Second Amendment also protected the right of the people, as a whole.

To me, since Patrick Henry and others made clear they would not vote for ratification of the existing Constitution without the 2nd Amendment being the right of the people to PUT DOWN A TYRANNY, they obviously felt it was the only guarantee of freedom from a tyranical government, regardless of what the First Amendment guaranteed.

And considering the speeches of John Bingham at that Congress, it is very evident to me at least, that (1) the Militia is a civilian group, since the millitia was not the center of that argument, the definition of "the people" was, and (2) that all "persons" have the right to keep and bear arms for reasons in addition to serving as a militia member. (such as protection from Ku Kux Klansmen)

Because if ever, God forbid, we had the misfortune of having our government representatives become tyranical, you could never expect the National Guard to protect against that, since the National Guard would be under the command of Government. (Nowdays, that is in some cases State, and in some cases Federal)

That is not to say that probably 85 percent of the National Guard members under such a situation would not join with civilian militia members in order to put down a tyranical government, I know most would.

But the Guard itself, could not do so as a whole.

The Guard was not organized until around 1905, and if it had been in existance at the time, it would have been considered a "Select Corps" much like a part-time army.

The House version of the 2nd Amendment that initially passed for ratification, was shortened in the Senate to it's current reading. But, interestingly, the House version explicitly defined the "militia" as being ..."composed of the body of the People".

In summary, the only ones wanting you to believe the National Guard is the Milita, are those who either are uninformed of the facts, or purposely do not want you to know the truth about the very very clear definitions during ratification.

The Second follows the first, (according to Mr. Henry, and everyone else voting for ratification at the time) only to uphold the fFrst. There is no other phrase in the Bill of Rights, or the Constituion itself, used more often than "We the People". The term "National Guard" appears not once.

The Guardsmen were in New Orleans, yet could do nothing to prevent the tyranical idiot local government officials from implementing the wholesale confiscation of firearms from home owners.

I truly belive, it is just as reasonable to say the Founders intended the "Junior League" to be the Militia, as it is to believe they envisioned the National Guard as being the Militia. After all, both were mentioned the same exact amount of times by the Founders.
 
Q: Who's Militia, In The 'Constitutional Right', To Bear Arms?

A: Anybody who can aim a rifle or shoot a pistol and is willing to defend their country against foreign invaders or an oppresive government.
 
This will not only lessen the call for military establishments, but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens.
There is something so far-fetched and so extravagant in the idea of danger to liberty from the militia, that one is at a loss whether to treat it with gravity or with raillery; whether to consider it as a mere trial of skill, like the paradoxes of rhetoricians; as a disingenuous artifice to instil prejudices at any price; or as the serious offspring of political fanaticism. Where in the name of common-sense, are our fears to end if we may not trust our sons, our brothers, our neighbors, our fellow-citizens? What shadow of danger can there be from men who are daily mingling with the rest of their countrymen and who participate with them in the same feelings, sentiments, habits and interests? What reasonable cause of apprehension can be inferred from a power in the Union to prescribe regulations for the militia, and to command its services when necessary, while the particular States are to have the SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE APPOINTMENT OF THE OFFICERS? If it were possible seriously to indulge a jealousy of the militia upon any conceivable establishment under the federal government, the circumstance of the officers being in the appointment of the States ought at once to extinguish it. There can be no doubt that this circumstance will always secure to them a preponderating influence over the militia.

Alexander Hamilton
http://www.foundingfathers.info/federalistpapers/fed29.htm
 
The Guardsmen were in New Orleans, yet could do nothing to prevent the tyranical idiot local government officials from implementing the wholesale confiscation of firearms from home owners.
I thought some NG units or idividuals DID do something. Didn't I see reports of some NG units receiving orders to confiscate weapons and refusing to do so? It's hardly a surprise that the visiting "troops" who participated most enthusiastically were California Highway Patrol.
 
The well-regulated militia clause is NOT a limiting or exclusionary clause:
it is an example of why the right of the people should not be infringed.

Exactly ! Makes no difference how you discribe militia , as it has no other meaning in the 2nd amendment other than giving an example of the reasoning for its existance. Not the entire reason, and not an exclusionary or limiting reason.
 
Dear Hawkmoon:

You wrote : "I thought some NG units or idividuals DID do something. Didn't I see reports of some NG units receiving orders to confiscate weapons and refusing to do so? It's hardly a surprise that the visiting "troops" who participated most enthusiastically were California Highway Patrol."


Refusing to commit an act of treason is admirable, but we kind of expect that of everyone.

However, the fact that the Guarsdmen were powerless to prevent the treasonous acts committed by armed thugs entering homes and confiscating weapons on a wholesale basis under the color of so called "law", demonstrates my entire point.

The Guard, is quite obviously, not the militia, but a "Select, Part Time Military Corps."

The very fact they could not halt these armed thugs committing acts of cruelty to 80 year old women being thrown down in their own homes, and their defensive arms confiscated, makes it much, much more clear that they are totally INCAPABLE of performing the only task, the Militia was intended to perform, and that is to protect against tyranny.

They simply have to follow government orders. That is why they had to stand by, and watched this atrocity occur. The militia is to PROTECT against a tyrannical government, at least according to Patrick Henry-the other Founding Fathers who signed the contract-and the promises they established in Article I, Section VIII.
 
Alex45ACP, I agree with you totally, since it is a fact, not an opinion.

Well regulated means well timed. Additionally, they were speaking of a "well regulated" militia, not well regulated guns. In fact, they stated "...the right to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed". So the regulated portion, being a part of a separate thought, is irrelevant.

The militia was to be well regulated, meanting well trained. The right of the people (later in the 14th clarified to mean all "persons" to keep and bear arms, was not to be infringed upon. period.

Don't see how lawyers managed to "interpret" the phrase "shall not be infringed" into meaning "only government employees can have guns".

Again, I think it is the public school failures. There is a school crisis, but it ain't from them not getting enough money, that is for sure.
 
A milita is civilian

Read any of the works written by the framers, especially Jefferson, and it is abundantly clear that a militia is civilian forces. Any time in their writings that a professional military force, consisting of soldiers, is referenced, it is called an ARMY or Standing Army. The term Militia has, over time, been twisted and misconstrued to be synonymous with military. (just like “clip” and “magazine”):D
 
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