The Myth That Recoil Is Not A Factor Under Stress

[Cosmoline]

In nearly every "bear gun" post I've read, whether handgun, rifle or shotgun, someone will chime in with the observation that the brutal recoil of the Casull, .500 S&W, .45-70 magnum, or .458 Ultra Short Hyper Mag isn't really going to be a problem for you if a large fanged creature rears its head. As a result, so the theory goes, you really don't need to practice with full power loads and you shouldn't be concerned if they threaten to break your wrist or shoulder and give you a massive flinch. You'll suddenly become a crack shot with the 500 grain ultra slammer rounds in the field if you really meet trouble.

A variation of this myth is seen in self defense threads, where people are told that they really don't need to PRACTICE with full power .357's (or whatever) because in a pinch they'll do fine.

WHERE THE DEVIL DOES THIS NONSENSE COME FROM!? Think about it for a second. You folks are rational, and I know many of you are experienced shooters. Have you tried to hit anything when your blood is pumping and your stress levels are through the roof? It's far MORE difficult to aim and fire under those circumstances, not far LESS difficult. If you can't hit a pie plate at ten yards with the .454 Ruger Alaskan under perfect range conditions, why on Earth do you think your aim will improve when you're running around trying to avoid an 800 lb. bear?

For defensive firearms, whether for goblins zombies or bruins, you should practice with what you plan on using. Over and over and over and over again. If you're finching and you don't like the stuff, SWITCH TO A FIREARM YOU CAN USE WITHOUT FLINCHING.

The only time massive recoil isn't as much of an issue is in hunting, particularly from a stand or fixed position. But even for close range spot-and-stalk hunting you need to be prepared to take fast, effortless shots off the shoulder.

 

[torpid]

If you can't hit a pie plate at ten yards with the .454 Ruger Alaskan under perfect range conditions, why on Earth do you think your aim will improve when you're running around trying to avoid an 800 lb. bear?

Isn't it "follow up" recoil that is brushed aside as a non-issue?
Perhaps on the 1 vs. 1 with the 800 lb. bear they figure after the first shot it's now over one way or another?


(I too like the concept of making every shot you take worthy of shooting if at all possible.)

.

 

[WayneConrad]

I agree. When I'm developing a target load for my pistol, I'm aiming for the recoil to feel the same as the factory ammo I carry for self defense. My load book contains notes like "3.4 gr, too light. 3.6 gr, better. 3.8 gr, feels like factory load."

 

[Standing Wolf]

If you're finching and you don't like the stuff, SWITCH TO A FIREARM YOU CAN USE WITHOUT FLINCHING.

Never minding the capitals, I have to concur. That extra measure of self-assurance can make all the difference in the world when push comes to shove.

 

[RyanM]

I guess people assume that flinching won't be a factor. Well, flinching due to anticipation of the recoil may be a lesser factor. But flinching, twitching, and shaking for other reasons will be a bigger problem.

Then there's the people that say "you won't feel the recoil." That's not going to help at all. There's a difference between recoil force and recoil velocity. Recoil force is what you actually feel; the snappiness of the recoil. Recoil velocity is what kicks the gun off target. Trying to "hammer" with a .357 magnum airweight snubby would probably put the second bullet through a second story window, nevermind where the first one goes.

 

[kirby]

You will sink to the level of your training.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

kbyrd

You could train for years to shoot a .45 derringer at 30 yards and I bet you woud NEVER be able to do it reliably. Training is limited by the reality of the situation and the capability of the weapon.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I had never heard the myth about recoil not being a factor under stress with large caliber handguns and bears. Then again, I don't live in Alaska and only spent one summer in SE Alaska on Prince of Wales Island and we didn't get to carry handguns.

I really have to wonder than in those accounts noted by Cosmoline if the folks claiming recoil isn't a factor are folks involve in such incidents and if so have no real recollection of recoil problems, may not have thought the guns sounded very loud, and might have noticed that the bears all had giant canine teeth several inches long. In other words, the perceived lack of recoil problems being a product or side effect of andrenaline dumps as obviously the problem of huge bore or huge power handgun recoil doesn't magically take a vacation just because they are in the middle of a crisis. Heck, there may even be some mitigation of the recoil problem via the extra strength provided by the adrenaline, but obviously recoil will still be a real issue.

One aspect not brought up by Cosmoline and that might be a contributing factor to the success of shooter by those making the stories is that they were able to aim and hit their bear targets quite easily because the bears closed distance on them and they were basically firing at mugging or interview distances whereby they could fire just about anywhere it the immediate area field of view and hit the bear because the bear filled much of their field of view. In other words, proximinity negates the need for skill. This goes back to my favorite proximity negates skill CCW story where an older blind paraplegic was attacked while in his wheelchair. Being blind, you would think it would be hard to hit a target. However, the paraplegic grabbed onto his attacker, pulled a revolver from under his blanket, put it in the attacker's ribs and pulled the trigger, resulting in an off center but still COM one stop shot. Even a blind man can shoot accurately and effectively at close range. When bears close distance, they become easier to hit in regard to a marksmanship perspective. Unlike with the blind paraplegic, I don't think it is in anyone's best interest that you wait until you can grab ahold of the bear to make your shot...unless you are blind.

 

[kirby]

You could train for years to shoot a .45 derringer at 30 yards and I bet you woud NEVER be able to do it reliably. Training is limited by the reality of the situation and the capability of the weapon.

Sure, sure. I didn't say training made for great skill all the time. My point is that I believe you will act as you have trained limited by the real-life situation you're in (if I've practiced reloading a revolver, I may not reload a magzine for a semi-auto so well if that's all I have.

 

[M.E.Eldridge]

I've always assumed that when people brought up the "recoil isn't a factor" stuff, they simply mean that the kick from say, a 12Ga slug gun, is going to feel less physically because of the adrenaline.

For me, this has been widely true. I've never felt much when I fired and had a deer in my sights, even when the rifle I was shooting(.58 musket) would beat me up at the range. And I don't mean from the bench. I'm talking about off-hand practice.

However, the statements that your not going to flinch is,in my experience, complete BS. Your going to flinch when you fire it whether you expect the recoil or not. Flinching can become a muscle memory of sorts, or so I've heard.

Also, I find that those 'experts' who recommend the uber-magnum cartridges rarely ever practice with their firearms. They sight them in and leave them sit until deer season, or whatever game they persue. Maybe, they'll check the zero of their scopes before opening weekend, but most don't. These are also the people who rarely harvest animals.

 

[Cosmoline]

The point is actually made in darn near every single "bear gun" thread on this forum. It usually comes in the form of a suggestion to practice with your .454 using .45 Colt loads or the like, because when it hits the fan you won't even notice the full power loads.

Reality has NOT supported these assumptions. While handguns have been used many times in bear defense shootings in Alaska, the hand cannons have decidedly poor results. You are better off with a firearm you are comfortable with and can draw aim and fire effortlessly. The extra advantage of a hyperdrive cartridge is pointless if you're not going to be able to hit anything with it. Hitting a moving bear is extremely difficult and requires every ounce of your firearms skill. It's entirely possible to miss, and many people have missed bears charging them. You don't want to handicap yourself by using some four pound monstrosity of a handgun that you've only fired a few dozen times with full power loads.

The same thing applies to self defense. You can find hundreds of threads here where someone suggests practicing with .38 Special in the .357 or .44 Special in the .44 Mag. Unless you're going to use that ammunition in defense, such suggestions are very dangerous. You must practice with what you plan on using. So if you're loading your SP-101 with .357's, practice with full power loads.

The bottom line is, unless you're willing to put a thousand rounds downrange of full power casull, .500 S&W or .45-70 magnum, you may want to reconsider relying on these firearms in the field for defensive use.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

For defensive firearms, whether for goblins zombies or bruins, you should practice with what you plan on using. Over and over and over and over again. If you're finching and you don't like the stuff, SWITCH TO A FIREARM YOU CAN USE WITHOUT FLINCHING.

Amen. This is why I tout the 10mm. For me it is the 10 that is the upper limit of recoil with rapid-fire follow-up. I've never been able to get off a fast second shot with even a .44 magnum. Actually I'd like to see anybody do it. 500 S&W mag? Not possible. Then there is the "but you need only one shot with this" crowd. Bull. I'd rather be able to hose a bear down with 8 than worry about whether I was going to get off a second. But that's another tired thread.


BTW, never heard that myth about recoil. Just the report.

 

[JohnKSa]

You may not remember the recoil, but the bruise will be there tomorrow--if you survive.

Even if you don't feel the recoil in the heat of the moment, you will still take just as long drag the muzzle down for a second shot as you do during practice.

Physics doesn't take a break when the SHTF.

AND, you may not remember the flinch, but if recoil has trained you to flinch during practice, the flinch (and miss) will be there.

The same sorts of things apply to self-defense situations & self-defense guns.