The Nuge and his big mouth

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Control Group

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Let's just stipulate right at the beginning that much of the stuff Ted Nugent says is over-the-top, and not actually an accurate depiction of how most - almost all - gun owners behave. I've seen a lot of people on THR complain about this, particularly his recent comments at an NRA rally. They think that he paints gun owners in an irresponsible light, makes us all look bad, and gives the antis ammunition to use against us. There's something to this, no doubt.

But, consider: how many people on the other side of the spectrum does Sara Brady really represent? How many of the people who tacitly support gun registration because "we register cars," or licensing for gun ownership, or bans on machine guns, actually believe that all guns should be taken away from everyone in the country? My guess is pretty few - otherwise, the antis wouldn't have to couch their confiscation efforts in "reasonable" sounding terms.

How many times has one of the rabid antis said something plainly ridiculous, out-and-out false, and yet pointing this out has failed to change another anti's mind? How frustrated have we all become with the preposterous nature of anti rhetoric, at the public's complete lack of caring how ludicrous it really is?

What makes us think the Nuge is any different?

The other side has their firebrands, their extremists, who push for every anti-gun bill possible while railing against the evil of firearms, bleating about blood in the streets, etc., etc. It doesn't seem to be doing much overall harm to their cause. Perhaps we need the same thing - perhaps Ted Nugent fills a very important role.

Think about it - if you're looking at a used car a guy's asking $1000 for, but you're willing to spend $800 on, how do you respond to his price? By pushing for $800, or by pushing for $600?

You never get what you ask for, because "compromise" is the process by which things get done. You always have to demand more than you really want, so you've got something to give. We need that contrast so that legitimately reasonable stances seem like compromises.
 
I have to agree with that.

It's true the Nuge isn't the best at being tactful,but the same can be said for Extremist anti's.

The way I see it is that both sides need to be balanced.
 
Nuge is a nut, but he is also clearly one of the most visable and enthusiastic backers of the Cause. His TV show was really pretty good, once he got over his spiel, He domonstrated very good skill in hunting and weapons safety, I saw a archery episode and rifle episode with both hunts being documented with enough camera angles to show reality with out it being a blood bath.

He also is probably one of the few people who will be invited to Conan O"Brien, or David letterman, or Jay leno and be allowed to speak on our behalf.

His efforts to teach younger people about our sports and beliefs are truely beneficial.

And is nice to have a Rock star in the paper who's connection with a gun is not trying to take it through airport security without checking it in.
 
I don't understand why need to compromise anything. Its pretty black and white in the constitution.

Also, don't get me wrong, but Nugent is not a good role model for gun ownership. If we really wanted to promote gun ownership we would be better off promoting business people and family men to speak about gun rights. I could care less about movie stars and rock stars. The last thing I am going to get an opinion from is someone who acts or sings for a living. Neither takes much of an education and most of the these so called stars have very little education.
 
I don't understand why need to compromise anything. Its pretty black and white in the constitution.

Also, don't get me wrong, but Nugent is not a good role model for gun ownership. If we really wanted to promote gun ownership we would be better off promoting business people and family men to speak about gun rights. I could care less about movie stars and rock stars. The last thing I am going to get an opinion from is someone who acts or sings for a living. Neither takes much of an education and most of the these so called stars have very little education.
But that's my point - we need people who are unreasonable in our favor to offset the people who are unreasonable on the other side. Without someone to represent a real fanatical position, those of us who are reasonable seem like fanatics.

You and I can both wish it weren't so, that reasoned arguments could demonstrate that one position is right, and therefore is the one to pursue, but that's just not the way things work. It's a natural process to look for the "middle ground." Moreover, it's an inherent part of our current political system. It's expected that both sides will engage in horse-trading to accomplish some compromise. The problem is, we keep showing up with no horses to trade away.

The "man on the street" will tend to assume that neither side is right, and the truth is somewhere in the middle. So when one side refuses to give ground, it makes them seem extremist - so if we come in standing on exactly the ground we want to keep, we come across as unreasonable. If we came in pushing for things that we don't really want, we'd have something to trade away in the name of compromise, and that's what a guy like Ted Nugent provides.
 
Dogma is driven by the extremes, and to quote Goldwater, "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." We could use ten more celebrity big-mouths with the same GUTS...
 
You can't very well argue your case if no one is listening to what you have to say. Nugent understands that the first priority of the infotainment business is to sell ad space so he cooperates by being over-the-top. In return, he gets a platform to say his two bits and if the comment was controversial enough, he can parlay it into even more media coverage.

The trick is to create the controversy and be able to defend the remark when called on it.
 
"But that's my point - we need people who are unreasonable in our favor to offset the people who are unreasonable on the other side. Without someone to represent a real fanatical position, those of us who are reasonable seem like fanatics."


Exactly! :)
 
Yes, but people like Sara Brady's view of compromise is similar to this analogy:
Someone comes and robs you and wants to take everything, then is convinced to not steal it all, just half. The robber then says, see how nice I was, I let you keep half your stuff.
Many times it seams like certain liberals, no politicians, have the same view on taxes too.
Obe One
 
I shook hands with Ted at the old Second Chance Bowling Pin Shoot.
He's a lot less flamboyant when he's off stage.
Didn't see him shoot pins, but I heard he did well with his 10mm Glock.

I also saw him on a late night TV show with several antis. He was the most calm and controlled person there.
 
You never get what you ask for, because "compromise" is the process by which things get done. You always have to demand more than you really want, so you've got something to give. We need that contrast so that legitimately reasonable stances seem like compromises.

Your principle is sound; I'm adamantly opposed, however, to the very idea of compromise when it comes to the nation's civil rights. There's no need to compromise even a sixteenth of an inch.
 
I see a lot of posts excusing "over the top" behavior because the antis do it too. And how do those extreme antis appear to you? Do they convince you that they are right? Or, do you write them off as the village idiot? I assure you our over the top raving maniacs are no less convincing than theirs. You simply do not convince people you are a reasonable responsible person, just like them, by acting like their stereotyped gun nut.

"Over the top" is also out of control. Just the kind of image I want to put forth to win hearts and minds.
 
Nugent realizes he's over the top. "

He does it on purpose because he gets more attention that way.

He doesn't recommend that others follow his example except in the sense that they make a point of speaking up for their beliefs any time the opportunity arises.
 
You think Mr. Nugent is over the top?

Man, you must have some dull friends. :)

At least he doesn't drink or do drugs. Never did. I still don't like his music, but that's neither here nor there I suppose.

John
 
Most of the time I consider Nugent way too outspoken and way too outrageous.

This time,,,,maybe the only time I will ever do this,,,,I totally agree with everything he said.
This country is turning into a bunch of panty waist, whiny, effeminates.

Guys in this country, the citizens, need to grow some nuts and take on, and deal with the issues like real men.
Too many of us men act like nutless attorneys anymore, myself included at times.

I for one am damned tired of political correctness.
 
Sorry, but I disagree. If you ever had to deal with kids who had been abused (my wife owned a daycare and we had many kids who had been removed from their families by Social Services for abuse), you'd want 'em dead to.
 
Ted's point is the time for moderation is over. Do you want a moderate amount of freedom? Do you want a moderate amount of respect ?

It's time to take this country back to the principles wupon which was founded. It's time to get active and quit just patting each other on the back and preaching to the choir.
 
You all should read his book "God, Guns and Rock & Roll" It really good. I've heard it said that if you listen to him for 5 minutes, you'll loath him. Listen to him for 20 minutes, he begins to make sense. Ted does make sense and he speaks out agaist PC everyday.

Ted does a lot for our cause. If you son was drowning and a stranger jumped in and saved his life, but you didn't like the way the stranger went about doing it, would you throw your son back in? The same is with Ted. Chances are he does more for our second amendment rights than you do so why be down on him just because you don't like the way he goes about it? BTW, that anology is in the forward to his book.
 
I did a little research on the subject, just to cover the specifics in my state. It is about time the general public become aware of what the heck is going on with our country and what the laws actually say.

Ted, for example, is operating well within the laws of Florida if he put his statements that he made at the NRA convention to action. For a reminder this is exactly what he said.

"Remember the Alamo! Shoot 'em!" he screamed to applause. "To show you how radical I am, I want carjackers dead. I want rapists dead. I want burglars dead. I want child molesters dead. I want the bad guys dead. No court case. No parole. No early release. I want 'em dead. Get a gun and when they attack you, shoot 'em."

I obviously find what Ted has to say is agreeable. So does the State of Florida...
776.012 Use of force in defense of person.--A person is justified in the use of force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against such other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, the person is justified in the use of deadly force only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony
776.08 Forcible felony.--"Forcible felony" means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.


If those who were going to commit forcible felonies were to understand and know that most people would adhere to those laws, the number of felonies committed in this state would drop dramatically.

Quite frankly, if this law was taught in middle school and high school many more people's lives would be saved. Not just the victims, but the criminals also. Due mostly to the simple dissemination of information.

While I agree that most people would find Ted's statements inflammatory, I also have to accept the fact that it is taken that way largely due to ignorance.
 
"You can't very well argue your case if no one is listening to what you have to say. Nugent understands that the first priority of the infotainment business is to sell ad space so he cooperates by being over-the-top. In return, he gets a platform to say his two bits and if the comment was controversial enough, he can parlay it into even more media coverage.

"The trick is to create the controversy and be able to defend the remark when called on it."

This is my thought exactly. If you look at what he said, it will have a lot of appeal to most people. He was outlandish in making his statements, but in the end, he was arguing the right of self defense. Rapists and robbers should live in fear for their lives, and most people wont' argue in favor of criminals. The Nuge was over-the-top, but the arguement against him is to argue in favor of criminals.
Mauserguy
 
Ted certainly does know his audience, and that if you don't have one, no one is hearing you. I first met him at the NRA convention in Reno in 2002. Came around the corner and he was being interviewed by, I think, local media, and there was just 2-3 other guys & me there observing at first. The bigger the group got, the funnier he got. It was terrific. After the interview, several of us stood around to meet him (I'd already met him once the previous day).

Well, my two daughters are HUGE Uncle Ted fans, because of his show "Spirit of the Wild", and I called home and told my wife to put the phone on speaker, but not to tell them who it was. After most everyone else had met shaken his hand, etc. I said "Ted, I have an 8 year old and a 5 year old on the other end of the phone; would you mind saying hello to them?" He says sure and starts talking kinda like, say girls who's yo' daddy?, etc. As he listened to them, he asks them "How old are you girls?" When they told him, he IMMEDIATELY shifted gears and began talking to an 8 and 5 year old. He told them he'd be in Idaho soon and he hoped they'd brush out his Rock-N-Roll Ponytail with a horse brush.

Well, it was almost bedtime when this took place, and my wife said they were just flabbergasted that they actually got to talk to Uncle Ted!!! Needless, to say, it was a while before they calmed down enough to go to bed.

When he came to Idaho later that year and had a book signing, of course, I took them to meet him. He remembered the phonecall with them and that just made their experience even more exciting for them.

Ted doesn't compromise on his principles, nor on our 2nd Amendment rights. He is an EXTREMELY effective communicator. As previously alluded to, put him on a program with a group of anti's, he'll have them so riled up they're spitting & sputtering, while he remains serene & calm, & he is, a smost are, a different person when not on stage or in front of the camera.

Sam
 
This thread represents one of the primary reasons I don't visit this site too often.

Seems like most members here would just as soon lose the war if it requires raising their voices and being "adamant" about their position.

I'm of the Goldwater school of thinking.

This whole notion that only quite and reasoned discourse can win the war
is just plain wrong.

Ain't nothing wrong with raising your voice and spewing forth a mouthful
now and again.
 
It seems out there today many people believe that organisations like the NRA are radical and extreme when In fact they are quite moderate and compromising. Having Ol' ted and others up there that espouse individual rights and justice helps drum home the fact that the basic personal defense of one's self with a firearm is NOT an extreme or radical concept.
 
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