The only AR that tempts me, and other rifle musings...

[Nightcrawler]

DPMS Panther Long-Range, .308 Winchester

It tempts me because it's so accurate. It won't be as reliable as a FAL, especially with tight, match-grade internals, but it's not a battle rifle. It's a specialty piece, not something you drag through the trenches.

(In any case, if I can keep my Bushmaster M16-wannabe running in this environment, I can keep a DPMS going at home.)

I'm not talking about the new carbine they've got. That thing won't do anything a FAL carbine won't, except, (gonna get flamed for this, ) jam. (Oddly enough, I can't find a picture of the DPMS Panther .308 M4-looking carbine on the intenet.)

DSA SA-58 Carbine, .308 Win

Hee hee. (Please don't start an AR love/hate war here...I was just cracking wise...)

ANYway, the reviews I've read about the Panther Long Range have all been good, especially with the new steel magazines.

Best of all is the price; the basic 24" model retails for $1150.00, quite a bit less than the MSRP of a box-stock M1A basic. The magazines are expensive, but I know how to maintain an M16-style weapon; all the little annoying places that crud builds up on them. I'm completely unfamilliar with the M1A, however.

I'm getting an idea for filling "niches" with my longarms. A 16" FAL carbine, with maybe a compact, low-powered optic, for general purpose use. A customized 21" DSA Medium Contour with maybe a 6x Rangefinding Scope and a quick-detach bipod as a "designated marksmans rifle"...

DSA SA-58 "Medium Contour", 21", .308 Win

(the DSA FAL, with its Badger Barrel, is capable of excellent accuracy; I read an old SOF review in which a DSA Medium Contour did 0.8MOA at 100 yards, with a scope, with the magazine removed (to avoid vertical stringing). Even with the mag in place, that's accurate enough for the role I envision.)

...and the Panther Long Range as the "sniper weapons system", with a high magnification optic, bipod, etc.

Bolt guns are good for this too, obviously, but nobody makes the bolt gun I'd like, and going custom would cost a lot more.

The .300SAUM version interests me, especially in that it still apparently has a 10 (or 9) round magazine. Usually, when you get a magnum caliber, you get seriously reduced capacity (stock Remington 700s only hold 4+1 to begin with, in .308. It's a pain at the range reloading every four shots.).

DPMS Panther Long-Range in .300 Remington Short Action Ultra Mag

Plus, I do like detachable box mags.

So, I'm tempted.

Though...DSA is supposedly coming out with a bull barrel FAL in one of the short mags...the short mags are, probably, useless in bolt guns, and are ridiculously expensive, but in autoloaders they com in handy for mating existing actions to more potent cartridges. A DSA in .300SAUM might win the dealy for me.

The short mags are overpriced if you don't reload, and I hear they're a pain even if yo do reload, but if I can afford (sort of) to shoot .41 Mag this shouldn't be a problem either.

Anybody have any experience with the .308 Long Range Panther, or the .300SAUM version?

How 'bout the Medium Contour FAL?

Just musing. Bored today.

 

[Rob96]

I have read all the reviews that have come out about DPMS 308's. All have been good. From SWAT Magazine to Weapons and Firearms for LE. One of the rags has an article about the carbine. It was reliable and accurate. I have experience with a DPMS Classic Sixteen and will be picking up two of their M4'geries this week. Great rifles. I have no experience with DSA, but have read nothing but good about them.

 

[Nightcrawler]

Oh, I have plenty of experience with DSAs in general. My STG-58A is the most reliable, toughest rifle I've ever owned, and I would not part with it except in trade for another DSA.

Custom builds from reputable smiths aside, I wouldn't buy a FAL other than a DSA (and any custom build I'd have done would be on a DSA receiver, probably using a DSA alloy lower and Badger barrel...)

It's just that even on the FAL files, I haven't bumped into a lot of people that have any experience with the Medium Contour, and am hoping someone here has.

(The SOF Article I referenced can be viewed in .pdf format HERE.)

 

[artherd]

The DPMS in .300SAUM is pretty darn sweet. SR-25 accuracy for 1/4 the price, and .300WinMag performance?! SIGN ME UP!

 

[wardog]

I have a SA-58 Medium Contour. It is pretty nice.

Have looked at the Bushmaster .308's? That's what I'd be looking for in an accurate long range semi-auto .308. Takes FAL mags which is a major plus. It is a bit pricey.

 

[Nightcrawler]

Bushmaster? No thanks. My FAL takes FAL mags just fine.

How's the medium contour handle? Is it too muzzle heavy? Does it shoot well?

 

[Zach S]

The BM .308 does look very tempting to me... FALs just feel weird IMO.

A guy at the range was talking about a DPMS .308 that a friend of his has. Said its the worst trigger pull he's ever felt in an AR platform.

 

[Nightcrawler]

Bushies and such

Well, the Bushmaster is more along the lines of a "battle rifle", I guess, and the FAL fills that role (in my opinion) better than any .308 AR type can.

The DPMS is less expensive, in the precesion rifle version, than the Bushmaster. Magazine compatibility isn't really an issue.

I've been thinking maybe I should just have the rifle I own slightly modified. Maybe I'm getting suckered in to all of the flashy ads and such, and that's what leaves me wanting the carbine?

Would be handier, though...yeah, I'll probably go with a carbine. Here's what I'm thinking:

-DSA receiver, no carry handle cut
-DSA Windage-knob para-style rear sight
-L1A1 flashhider
-Badger 16" stainless steel barrel (phosphate coated)
-Penguin hump-back buttstock and non-bipod-cut handguards
-Specter SOP sling
-Commonwealth bayonet
-DSA Extreme Duty Scope Mount
-Optic


I'm a little up in the air on the optic. Something low powered and compact, but not costing $800.00 (so there go the Leupolds....). Opinions on this matter appreciated.

 

[Father Knows Best]

No, no, no. I don't disagree with your medium contour choice. For a carbine, though, you need an SA58 OSW: http://www.dsarms.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=SA58OSW&storeid=1&image=sa58osw.gif. And for a long range rifle, stay away from those ARs. The PTR-91-A1 would be a good choice: http://www.jldenter.com/PTR-91 A1 Rifle.html.

That DSA is available with either an 11 or 13 inch barrel, and has a folding stock. You'll need to transfer it through a Class III dealer, but what a sweet little rifle it would be. OAL is less than 24 inches with the 11 inch barrel.

The PTR-91-A1 is the target version of JLD Enterprises' HK-91/G3 clone, the PTR-91. JLD's story is a lot like DSA's. When Steyr of Austria stopping making FAL pattern rifles, DSA bought all the original tooling and Steyr's huge stockpiles of parts. When HK stopped making the G3/HK91, JLD bought all the original tooling to make HK91s and set it up here in the USA. The JLD versions are generally considered to be better than the HK originals.

 

[Nightcrawler]

A 13" FAL would be interesting, but too short for a general purpose carbine. A 16" FAL is still good for out to four hundred meters and beyond. A 13" is hurting your ballistics to be much more than a specialty piece.

In any case, there's an awful lot of paperwork involved in getting a SBR, and to top if off, it's an extra pain in the butt to get it in Michigan.

I believe the JLD Enterprises are actually based on Pakistani equipment. Pakistan is a huge producer of HK-pattern weapons. Not sure on this, though.

 

[wardog]

Bushmaster? No thanks. My FAL takes FAL mags just fine.
How's the medium contour handle? Is it too muzzle heavy? Does it shoot well?

I just like the idea of having 2 (or more) rifles that take the same mags, especially at $5 each.

The medium contour handles very good. The rifle actually feels slender overall (for a .308 semi) and the heavy part of the barrel is under the handguards, so it doesn't feel muzzle heavy. I can't quote accuracy numbers as I've only done some off hand shooting with mil spec ammo. I recently mounted a scope but haven't sighted it in yet.

 

[Father Knows Best]

You're wrong about JLD. You're thinking of POF -- Pakistani Ordnance Factory. POF produces a lot of HK pattern parts, but JLD doesn't use any of them.

JLD Enterprises was started by Jose Luis Diaz. He used to be the Argentine distributor for HK. When HK announced it was stopping production of the G3/91/93 line at its Portugal plant, he arranged to buy out all the tooling, drawings, parts, etc. He basically picked up the entire factory and shipped it to Connecticut. That's exactly the same thing that DSA did with the FAL. DSA bought out Steyr's factory and parts and moved it to the USA.

All PTR rifles are made 100% in the USA. If you lay an original HK 91 next to a PTR 91, you'll see what I mean about the quality. The HK is a fine rifle, but the PTR is better. The welds and finish are both much smoother on the PTR. All PTRs also use match grade bull barrels, and the chambers are better suited to match grade ammo.

On the SBR -- you're probably right. An 11" barreled FAL with a folder would be a cool toy, even if not particularly practical.

Can you get the folding stock on the 16" carbine? I don't see that listed as an option on DSA's site.

 

[Rockstar]

Nightcrawler, just wondering why you'd say "no thanks" to Bushmaster? You can bet that your DPMS won't be made of materials equal to that of a Bushy. Your reference to your FAL taking FAL mags doesn't seem to make too much sense, in the context of this thread. (The "plus" of a Bushy's taking FAL mags is that the FAL mags are cheap, plentiful and reliable)

 

[Nightcrawler]

Few things.

I carry a Bushmaster M16 clone here. I'm unimpressed with the workmanship (internal machining especially). The few Colts we have floating around are much better.

Secondly, the DPMS rifle is cheaper than a comparable Bushmaster model. As for materials...they're both made of forged aluminum. I don't imagine the Bushmastering being any more or less sturdy.

But, like the Armalite, the Bushy IS expensive, moreso than the DPMS, which I've read nothing but good reviews about. I don't see any reason to pay extra; I've never heard of DPMS being accused of poor quality. (In anybody here HAS heard of problems with the LR-308, please make them known!)

In any case, I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that someone was suggesting I purchase the "battle rifle" styled Bushmaster (as opposed to the "sharpshooting" version). A FAL is, to me, infinitely preferable to ANY Stoner-type weapon when used as a battle rifle, magazines notwithstanding.

As a precesion weapon, however, the Stoner system wins the day. It's very simple to accurize and is less of a pain in the butt to maintain as such than other systems (though obviously a match weapon will require more TLC than a battle rifle, regardless of operating system).

 

[Rob96]

You can bet that your DPMS won't be made of materials equal to that of a Bushy.

Wow!!! That is news to me.

 

[ny32182]

Here is my take on the rifles being discussed:

I've owned Bushmaster and LMT 5.56mm carbines. I'll take the LMT simply because you can get the upper in 100% M4 milspec form... not because of any functional issue. My Bushy Superlight performed flawlessly. However, I kept the LMT and sold the Bushy so I could buy a...

DSA SA-58 21". It feels very solid; action is nice and smooth. Now that I've turned the gas up to "3", it is reliable, although it leaves big extractor marks on the brass, and bends the rim of the cases. It also groups better than I thought it would, at least until it gets warm. However, due to "manufacturing tolerances" or something, the sights are way off... I've got the crank the rear sight up to 500 meters to get the POI a couple inches high at 100 yards. This is annoying, because if I ever need to shoot at anything over 200 yards, I'll have to use some sort of funky-guess-work manual hold over.

20" AR: I own an excellent Bushy HBAR. I wouldn't take anything else. No way I would pay as much or more for a Colt with a plastic buffer and no chrome lining. Internals are awesome. I like it better than any DPMS I've ever looked at.

If I were going to get a .308 AR, it would be a Bushmaster, no question... although I've never been particularly tempted by the idea.

 

[Father Knows Best]

Have you asked DSA about the sight issue? They have a good rep for customer service, and may well fix it if you send it back to them.

 

[ny32182]

I called them; they want me to benchrest it, but I don't have access to that kind of equipment. I may not be a Marine sniper, but I don't need it strapped down to tell them it is hitting a foot low at 100 yards...

 

[Nightcrawler]

ttbadboy:

Dumb question, but often we overlook the obvious and smack ourselves in the forehead later. You have tried adjusting the front sight for elevation, yes?

Second question: You're not trying to use the sling as a shooting sling, are you? The FAL wasn't designed for such; the light barrel, with the sling mounted to it, can flex ever-so-slightly under sling tension and throw off your aim.

Third, try a change of ammo. What kind are you using? You shouldn't have to have the gas system cranked down to 3 for NATO-spec ball ammo.

Fourth, call DSA and tell them you're sending it back, if nothing helps.

Also...Colt's military weapons are always better than their civvie models. (Whereas I've heard in the Bushmasters, the gov't contract ones get less attention than the civvie models.)

The issue might be moot, though...I've got a buddy that says he can get me a sweet, sweet deal on a genuine Knight's SR-25....

Any more feedback on the Medium Contour FAL?

 

[ny32182]

I replaced the front sight with a #1 and put it as far down as it will go. I could try dremeling it down farther.

There is no sling on it.

POI is very close with Winchester 150gr SP and Aussie surplus. Those are the only two kinds of ammo I've run.

I put the gas from 5 to 3 in one step. It may work on 4, I don't know. On 5, it was having difficulty stripping the first rounds out of a full mag.

DSA basically said that sometimes the tolerances stack up in a certain way, and that there is likely nothing wrong with it. I don't know what they could do to change the POI that much.