The Pianist - Were people really this spineless?

[Art Eatman]

There are signs around the Dachau Work Camp museum saying, "Never Again". The people who work there are very sincere in their belief that no replication of Hitler and his Nazis should ever occur. However, they rely on political activism and the vote to ensure this.

The Israelis have a saying, "Masada shall not fall again!" and they are not relying on the ballot box. I grant that the threat of genocide under which those Jews live is not internal but external. The Israelis themselves coined the label "Sabra", which I understand is a cactus indigenous to the region.

Looking at governmental behavior in what one might call the "soft" countries of North America and Europe, I'd say the Sabras have the better view. They've learned from history in a way the soft Socialists haven't.

Art

 

[Mastrogiacomo]

You have to remember, the Jews were used to being treated this way -- they had no way of knowing the situation would get this far out of hand. It's easy to talk about history, another thing entirely to live through it.

 

[Ladybug]

This thread is disturbing enough that I will relate a personal story I don't often share - JUST to make my point... I was raped when I was 12 years old, and I did not fight back. Now, most people (including 11 and 12 year old girls) will say that, obviously, they would try to fight back or at least scream or try to run or do something. If you had asked me a week earlier what I would do, I probably would have told you how I would fight the guy off. Well, I was a 12 year old girl, weighing all of 70 pounds, stuck in a car with a 25 year old man, who happened to be a soldier and in quite excellent physical condition. I knew he was going to do something to me, and I was scared to death. He drove me to a remote beach, where he raped me. I did not know if he would try to kill me, or hurt me more, if I fought or ran or screamed, so I closed my eyes and pretended I was somewhere else. Being in (even perceived) mortal danger, you do things you cannot forsee. Yes, it is good to plan, and to be as prepared as you can be at all times, and to practice your plans... but until you are actually in that situation, you cannot say for sure what you would do. To call someone else a coward without living their nightmare is beyond insensitive.

By the way, I lived to testify against the man who raped me, and sent him to jail - I don't know what would have happened if I had tried to fight him or scream. Perhaps he would never have raped me, and perhaps he would have killed me.

All I am saying is, when you are unarmed and in the corner, you may have a better chance of survival if you do what you are told... as I said before, there were Jews who walked out of concentration camps to later testify against their torturers. If you are being rounded up, and you say "no thanks", as QKR would, you probably wouldn't have made it another day.

And finally, once again, do NOT presume to know what you would do if you were a different person, in a different time, under different circumstanes - you CANNOT know that. Passing judgements on victims is rarely justified.

 

[jmbg29]

It's easy to talk about history, another thing entirely to live through it.

A perfecy example would be that we are currently living in the early days of WWIII, and the number of people who are oblivious to that fact boggles the mind.

 

[QKRTHNU]

Ladybug,

You keep referring to me saying "no thanks". I made that statement when you brought up the topic of being offered work in exchange for rights. I would be more inclined to use explicatives if made an offer like that. I said I would say "no thanks" because I would be as polite and appeasing as possible while making plans to get the hell out of dodge.

As to your personal situation, That is a truly horrible experience, I'm glad you are here with us today. At 12 years old you were a child, which makes it even more tragic. Tell us though. If you were again faced with a situation like that today how would you react?

 

[QKRTHNU]

A perfecy example would be that we are currently living in the early days of WWIII, and the number of people who are oblivious to that fact boggles the mind.

jmbg29,

Did you happen to catch "Hitler: The Rise of Evil " on TV tonight?

When Hitler was pitching the Enabling Act it was scary how closely it resembled the arguments for the Patriot Act.

 

[Ladybug]

I made that statement when you brought up the topic of being offered work in exchange for rights.

"Offered" being sarcastic - you have ten Nazis pointing a gun at your head, remember? The point was, you don't really have a choice.

If you were again faced with a situation like that today how would you react?

I can't say for sure. But if everything were exactely the same as back then, only I'm grown... if I were armed, I would defend myself. Unarmed, I would probably weight the consequences and situation very carefully - it would be unrealistic for me at 120 lbs to be able to physically beat this guy. I MAY be able to get a good kick in the nuts or jab in the eyes or other such move in, but unlikely. There was no one within hearing distance. And I doubt very highly that I could out-run him long enough to get to safety. Then again, I was babysitting the guy's kids and he was supposed to be driving me home - today I would never be in a situation where a guy I did not know well was driving me anywhere. Even on dates, I always drive myself (oh wait, before I got married, even on dates... ha ha ha).

I think my main point is, we need to learn from history (personal and world history), we should think about what we would do in certain situations, but remember that we really don't know until it happens to us.

 

[alan]

As has been noted, yes they were, and many if not most would be so today also.

It is also true that he who learns not from history, will relive history. This applies not only to guns, but to many other things also.

 

[QKRTHNU]

I think my main point is, we need to learn from history (personal and world history), we should think about what we would do in certain situations, but

I agree.

remember that we really don't know until it happens to us.

Like Correia said earlier in the thread there are some decisions we NEED to make now and not later. We need to completely convice ourselves now of how we should and will react.

If you are not confident that you could defend yourself while unarmed I urge you to seek out some kind of self defense training to build up your confidence. Or at the absolute least, always be armed.

 

[jmbg29]

When Hitler was pitching the Enabling Act it was scary how closely it resembled the arguments for the Patriot Act.

Bush = Hitler

Why didn't I see that coming.

 

[Ladybug]

Okay, my last post I promise, because I'm repeating myself...

We need to completely convice ourselves now of how we should and will react.

Fine. But don't call someone else a coward because they didn't do what you'd like to think you'd do in the same situation. Like I said, I'm sure I would have told you that I would fight/scream/run if I were being raped - unless you've been in a situation like that, you just can't know for sure how you will react. Making comments like the Jews must not have wanted their freedom, or they were spineless cowards is just inappropriate.

 

[winstonsmith]

Not to mention completely and utterly disrespectful to the memories of the 11 million dead in the holocaust, ladybug.

 

[JoshM]

And they wouldn't have to go to a magical county where people love Jews as you say. They would just have to go somewhere that they're not being told what they can and can't do because their Jews. Switzerland would have been a good choice, but certainly not the only one.

The creation of a Jewish homeland was an idea formed well before the 1900's. The problem was finding a destination which was possibly interested as most were outright hostile. The list of possible destinations included Uganda [British Africa], Morocco, and British Palestine. Notice how none of these locations are in Europe.

Switzerland during the Second World War actively stopped fleeing Jews. Sadly even my little nation sought to stop Jewish refugees post World War 2 and we are hardly a hotbed of anti jewish feeling.

 

[Joe Demko]

QKRTHNU,
If you want to tell yourself, and everyone here, what a hard case you are and how you would never behave like that; then fine, dickwave to your heart's content. On the other hand, why don't you refrain from slandering millions of murdered people with words like "spineless" and "coward." Insulting those people's memory does nothing to prove you are the Hero of The Resistance(tm) you'd like to believe yourself.

 

[HankB]

I don't think that comparing the shameful internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII is exactly analogous to the Holocaust - the Japanese-Americans were picked up in a very short time, but the Holocaust went on for years. And many of the Japanese interned were not actually native born or, (thanks to the Oriental Exclusion Act) naturalized, US citizens, but were legally Japanese nationals.

As far as Nazi Germany goes, for those whose neighbors disappeared three years before, and whose friends disappeared two years before, and whose cousins and uncles disappeared the previous year . . . well, it seems there would have been some incentive to do something - ANYthing - to avoid their fate.

Even the first people rounded up and shipped off to Hitler's death camps had a bit of warning . . . take a look at the timeline -

1933 - Hitler proclaims a 1-day boycott of Jewish business
1935 - Jews deprived of citizenship by Nuremburg laws
1936 - Jews prevented from voting in parliamentary elections
1938 - 17,000 Polish Jews shipped to camps in Poland
1939 - Jews required to carry ID cards. Kristallnacht happens in November. Many other restrictions (including prohibition of the ownership of firearms, carrier pigeons, radios, suspension of driver's licenses, etc.) were enacted.

And these are just the major milestones. So . . . the Holocaust was a long time coming. Many saw the writing on the wall and left. With difficulty, true, but by and large they survived. Many more simply didn't want to see what was going on, refused to believe how bad things were . . . and were murdered.

 

[QKRTHNU]

Bush = Hitler

Why didn't I see that coming.

Huh? When did I say that? I was comparing legislation and excuses for it's need.

Please don't put words into my mouth.

 

[Art Eatman]

HankB, built into your point is the fact that many, many people work very hard at believing that what's happening isn't really happening.

There are those refusing to believe that a certain percentage of Islamics hate all aspects of western culture and are willing to die in actions against it. There are those believing that the stock market will soon rise. There are those believing that there will be an increase in jobs in manufacturing in the U.S. There are those believing there will be no abuse or misuse of such laws as the Patriot Act, etc. There are those who believe that more money will solve our problems in the realm of education.

Hey, pick a subject: You will find many who refuse to believe that trends exist, or that they will continue...

Art

 

[alan]

I believe that what Art said so well can be reduced to the following.

Without regard to concrete evidence, some folks insist on sticking their heads in the sand. Sad, but true.

 

[Ian]

Most Jews in the Holocaust did not value their freedom over their lives - their decisions make this clear. They were generally stuck between two nearly equally abhorrent alternatives, fight back and have their families killed or obey and probably be killed anyway. Between denial of the Nazi plans and the prospect of being able to live until tomorrow, most chose obedience. Only under the most traumatic circumstances did they change their ways. In Warsaw, it took the rapid deportation and murder of more than 250,000 to convince the populace to resist. Many did not change until they wanted their families slaughtered and had to carry their bodies from the gas chambers. Most of the revolts occurred in the death camps themselves, among the Jews who were forced to operate them. Treblinka and Sobibor were shut down by such revolts, as was part of Auschwitz. But the sad fact is that a astonishing amount of brutality was needed before revolt was considered.

Does this make them cowards? I don't know. Many of the fighters displayed extraordinary courage. But most of the victims made a choice - to not endanger themselves and their families more than they had to at any time. They lacked foresight, and they refused to believe that information which was available to them.

For the details of how I came to this conclusion, take a look at my inquiry into the general lack of Jewish resistance to the Holocaust.

HankB - Actually, the Japanese arrested here included a great many native-born, American citizens. And they were held captive for several years under the blessing of at least one Supreme Court ruling.

 

[Oleg Volk]

A recent film Grey Zone might be worth watching. It covers the revolt at Oswenzim in 1944. Pretty well done movie, just out on DVD.

 

[Ian]

Yeah, it's an excellent film (accurate gun-handling in it, too).

 

[Byron Quick]

When Hitler was pitching the Enabling Act it was scary how closely it resembled the arguments for the Patriot Act.

Well, there's a reason for how closely it resembles those arguments. Seems the producer of the film edited Hitler's actual statements of the time for the sole purpose of making the resemblance occur. And is now catching some well deserved criticism.

Watching TV for your knowledge of history might not be the optimum choice.

As far as resistance goes...the majority of the victims of the Holocaust could not believe that things would get that bad. Many did try to leave and were turned away from any possible sanctuary. Most of the victims were killed in ways that did not leave much chance for resistance. Of the few that were killed by bullets to the back of the head, most had been on 1000 calorie diets for months if not years.

Tell you what: What do you say about restricting your access to food for six months. Beyond that, it won't be a balanced diet. As a result you will also be suffering vitamin deficiencies. At the end of the six months get into a boxing ring with a 13 year healthy well fed girl. I'll bet on the girl.

The gradualism of what the Nazis did was the main reason there was so little resistance. By the time that it was obvious that the only choice was between dying on your feet or on your knees, few had the physical strength remaining to stand. And that is literal fact.

 

[Oleg Volk]

I will also note that growing up in Europe (at least the USSR) wasn't condusive to even thinking about resistence. Government action was viewed as tornados are viewed here, violent, occasional and unstoppable...I know I thought that way as a kid. Took years in America to erase that conditioning.

 

[QKRTHNU]

Watching TV for your knowledge of history might not be the optimum choice.

Very True! But then again neither is reading written accounts a lot of the time.

Well, there's a reason for how closely it resembles those arguments. Seems the producer of the film edited Hitler's actual statements of the time for the sole purpose of making the resemblance occur. And is now catching some well deserved criticism.

Do you happen to have a link to information on what was actually said? I assumed there wouldn't be any actual written documentation of Hitlers Arguments and it was all based on heresay.

 

[Byron Quick]

I don't know about links but you can find Hitler's speech after the Reichstag fire. I do know this. He didn't mention terrorists...that was not the term du jour. He was railing at communists not terrorists during the speech.