The PoliceOne Firearms Corner - CCW from a LEO's eyes

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Good read. This mentality is what you would expect for the experienced officers. It is generally the younger officers that cause all of the situations that flood forums like this one.
 
Actually, I got the vibe that the author is against concealed carry. Considering he said that people have the "right to carry" and called it a necessary evil, I got a strong vibe that he's anti-ccl. His take seems to be that it's the law to allow it so he'll tolerate it.
 
good read, that is.

on the other side, if u do not fit in the "conservative looks" category .....

:)

imagine being skinny and black, without a suit :)
 
I got the distinct impression the author was standing on one side of the Blue line extending his hand across to the civilians on the other side and coaxing his brethren in arms to have the courage and humility to do the same.

Good article.

I do hope most LEOs are this open-minded, though I also understand the trained bias that is incorporated into their learned prejudice against anyone they encounter until proven otherwise. Makes sense and it would be hard to remember that people are just people and not always the enemy.

But, that kind perspective doesn't prepare you for anything to happen involving anyone you may come across at any given moment.

Sad, really.

I've often thought it'd be exciting to be a LEO, but always feared that they develop a gray veil over the world they encounter due to everything they have to deal with and witness on a daily basis.

For their sake, I truly hope that isn't entirley so.
 
I would like to see the article listed on Police1 and posted by e2cTrainer copied and passed out to each citizen when they receive a CCW permit. I think it would be a good idea for the citizen to see things from the police officers point of view.

I don't feel the author of the article is anti-CCW, just trying to make his point to other officers that there are a lot of citizens out there carrying firearms and they have to determine who is who. You will note that he says most CCW permit holders are pro-police and support the job PO's do. I don't see that he feels the police and CCW holders are in any way adversarial. NavyLT says he feels it is sad when an article has to be written discribing how an officer should deal with a law abiding citizen. Almost without exception police officers know how to deal with law abiding citizens, they just don't KNOW who those law abiding citizens are at first. When they walk up to a car or arrive at an emergency call they can't look at the people involved and see a Good Guy or Bad Guy sign written on their forehead. BG's are stereo typed in the movies but in real life you can't always tell who the BG is. The author is just trying to demonstrate things to observe so officers can determine who might be the GG or CCW holder so they don't treat them like the BG. If you haven't read that link posted by e2cTrainer in this thread please do so. I think you will note that the author is just passing on his experiences and observations of people and what to look for that might help identify those who could be a CCW permit holder and one of the GG's. Believe me it isn't always obvious.

I think that by far the largest number of LEO's support the rights to CCW. I am a 30 year retired veteran police officer and along with myself about 95% of the officers I know strongly support the 2nd Amendment and the rights of CCW. If it were possible to confiscate every single gun in the world from every single person then I might support a ban on firearmes. (No! I'm not forgeting the sports shooter, I like to shoot and hunt too). However I live in the real world and know that isn't going to happen. As far as I know there has never been a government in history that was able to fully protect their citizens. So as long as there are criminals out there who have weapons and would prey on the unprotected citizen they should be allowed to have the means to protect themselves.

Like some of the posts say, "when seconds count a police officer is only minutes away". Police officers can't be everywhere all of the time. I agree that if at all possible a citizen SHOULD wait for LEO's to handle the criminal element and not use a weapon except to protect a human life. That is what PO's are trained to do and their arrival at a "situation" takes a huge civil, legal and possibile criminal liability off of the citizen. But untii the world becomes Utopia and provides total safety for citizens I think it is every law abiding citizens right and resonsibility to have the tools necessary to provide protection for themselves and their loved ones.

I don't know how it is in every state but in mine all CCW's permits are connected to the drivers license and vehicle plate #. When a PO makes a traffic stop they will often have already run the plate number and know that the registered owner of the vehicle is CCW. But perhaps the vehicle isn't being driven by the owner, perhaps it is stolen. Anyway when they run the drivers license of the driver they will get the information about his CCW permit. It is nice to know a person is CCW but the armed BG isn't going to have that information on their vehicle or dirvers license so the PO has to treat all contacts with caution.

The advise on the Police1 site about informing the officer that you are CCW is good advise. It is going to make the police officer more at ease to know that you are not trying to hide the fact. Neither is it a good idea for the officer to discover on his own that you are armed or to see a weapon in the car without having been told about it in advance. If that happens you will most likely find your self at gun point until the officer has secured the scene and the gun is under his control. Only then does it get worked out as to who you are and whether the gun is being carried legally or not. It is for everyones protectioon because I am sure all of you have seen how many PO shootings there has been recently, they number around 120-140 killed each year and the number is on the increase as there is more violence on the streets. Just like the rest of you, the officers want to go home to their wife and kids after each work day and the nature of their job causes them to try and be on the safe side and take as few chances as possible.

I don't want to start a flame war here about things that have happened between you, a family member, friend, etc and a police officer. That is not my intent. I am just trying to point out why some msiconceptions happen between the polive and the law abiding citizen. Especially as pertainds to CCW.
 
I am sure all of you have seen how many PO shootings there has been recently, they number around 120-140 killed each year and the number is on the increase as there is more violence on the streets.
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Just for some context ... maybe a note of correction:

May 11 : 2010
FBI Releases Preliminary Statistics for Law Enforcement Officers Killed in 2009

According to preliminary statistics released today by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), 48 law enforcement officers were feloniously killed in the line of duty during 2009. Geographically, 21 of the victim officers were killed in the South, 13 in the West, seven in the Northeast, and five in the Midwest. Two officers were slain in Puerto Rico. The total number of officers killed is seven higher than in 2008.

By circumstance, 15 deaths occurred as a result of ambush situations, nine officers died during arrest situations, eight were killed while handling traffic pursuits/stops, five died responding to disturbance calls, four while investigating suspicious persons/circumstances, four during tactical situations, two while handling and transporting prisoners, and one while handling a person with a mental illness.

A breakdown of weapons revealed that firearms were used in the majority of slayings. Of the 45 officers killed with firearms, 28 were killed with handguns, 15 with rifles, and two with shotguns. Three officers were killed with vehicles.

At the time they were killed, 35 law enforcement officers were wearing body armor. Twelve officers fired their weapons, and nine of the slain law enforcement officers attempted to fire their weapons. Seven officers had their weapons stolen, and two officers were slain with their own weapons.

The 48 law enforcement officers were killed in 37 separate incidents in 2009. All of the incidents have been cleared by arrest or exceptional means.

In addition to the officers who were feloniously killed, 47 law enforcement officers were accidentally killed in 2009. This number is 21 lower than the previous year's number.

The FBI will release final statistics in the Uniform Crime Reporting Program's annual report, Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted, which will be published on the Internet in the fall of this year.
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Some sources say that there are appoximately 800,000 state, federal, municipal, university, transit, etc. law-enforcement officers in the U.S. If 95 were killed last year, that's a 1:8,421 chance. Considering that nearly half of those were accidental deaths which could befall someone in 'most any profession, the risks fall to 1:16,667.

In other words, 11.8 deaths in 100,000 -- including accidents.

Recent studies of construction workers have found a rate of 16 deaths per 100,000 workers.

Policing may be a dangerous job -- but not an especially dangerous job.
 
Actually, I got the vibe that the author is against concealed carry. Considering he said that people have the "right to carry" and called it a necessary evil, I got a strong vibe that he's anti-ccl.
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He didn't really say that:

Education and Public Awareness
Rather than seeing CCW as a necessary evil, I would look upon it as an opportunity to work with your citizens.
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He called it an opportunity to work with citizens. Now a mean cop might take that as "an opportunity to workover your citizens" but I don't think he meant that.

Now this part
Keep in mind that though they carry firearms, CCW permit holders don’t expect to be treated like felons
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Why would anyone NOT committing a felony expect to be treated as a felon? The need to say that ^^exposes a flawed thought process in police culture that armed people who are not cops can only be criminals, or soon to be criminals.
 
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If it were possible to confiscate every single gun in the world from every single person then I might support a ban on firearmes.
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An interesting "idea"... as long as you're not a 110lb. woman faced with a 210lb. rapist, or a 70 year old man set upon by a 22 year old, 6'2" bodybuilder, or a lone Ethiopian legal immigrant set upon by skinheads with bats.

What you propose is to put society in the hands of large, strong men, with edged weapons and clubs. We tried that. It was called "the dark ages".
 
Considering that nearly half of those were accidental deaths which could befall someone in 'most any profession,
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Getting hit by a drunk driver while working an accident scene? Of a mva while driving in conditions and at a rate no other would do so in responding somewhere. That's a totally false assumption.

Some sources say that there are appoximately 800,000 state, federal, municipal, university, transit, etc. law-enforcement officers in the U.S.
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Your data is way off. The last available UCR has that number at 581,504 That was from the 2008 UCR.

Total Line of Duty Deaths 2009: 127
2010 to date: 98
 
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Quote:
"If it were possible to confiscate every single gun in the world from every single person then I might support a ban on firearmes." Unknown police author

Deanimator:

"An interesting "idea"... as long as you're not a 110lb. woman faced with a 210lb. rapist, or a 70 year old man set upon by a 22 year old, 6'2" bodybuilder, or a lone Ethiopian legal immigrant set upon by skinheads with bats.

What you propose is to put society in the hands of large, strong men, with edged weapons and clubs. We tried that. It was called 'the dark ages'."
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Exactly. In the first few years of my police career I was of the same mind set as the unknown police author because I worked in the highest crime area and there were so many criminally related gun incidents. There was almost no exposure to the legal use of firearms (self defense), so the perception was that guns in the hands of citizens was a bad thing. My concern was not for the rights of the citizen but for my right to arrive home safely to my family after work.

By the time I really became proactive in the apprehension of criminals, it dawned on me that for the most part (90%+ ?) the police were considerably after the fact in the commission of crimes. Essentially, the citizen was responsible for his own defense. It also dawned on me that one day I was no longer going to be a police officer and if I couldn't carry a gun who was going to protect me? And who is going to protect my family knowing that the police are after the fact about 90%+ of the time?

It would go a long way in changing the attitudes of the police if these ideas can be brought home. There must be an understanding among law enforcement officers that they are first and foremost defenders of the Constitution on the primary level. Even though the repression of a citizen's right to bear arms might provide some temporary safety of our police in the long run it will cause more harm to the rest of the community.

Does this mean that even though I was honorably retired (re: on-duty injuries) that I’ve forsaken my brothers? No, the SCOTUS has provided them with “stop and frisk,” the right to have occupants exit a vehicle at their command and other decisions with regard to an officers safety. They also have a right to use common sense i.e., wait for back-up, pick their spots for confrontations and if they are not getting proper training at work then get it on their own - that’s the very least that they owe to themselves and to their families.
 
I plan on OC and CC'ing now that Im a Virigina resident, but I find this quote interesting.

"I have found, by and large, that citizens who do carry concealed are very pro-law enforcement and would be very willing to come to your aid if you were in the middle of a fire fight."

I would in no way assist a officer in a firefight. My firearm is for my protection, not to assist law enforcement which I have no business doing.
 
I would in no way assist a officer in a firefight. My firearm is for my protection, not to assist law enforcement which I have no business doing.
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It would depend upon where I happened to be.

Where I live now, I would consider it.

Where I'm from, I wouldn't in a million years, nor become involved in any other way, including dialing 911.
 
Was looking through the comments and this one stuck out to me.

I have previously "politley" disarmed all ccw citizens I have encountered until our contact or conversation was concluded. I often return an unloaded weapon to their trunk or back seat on conclusion. I do this because I have encountered persons legally armed and left them armed only to have to go back to their car after doing an ncic check and advise them that their ex had their license suspended due to child support obligations or like violation and were now subject to custodial arrest. My agency has onboard car computers and requires that we use them for running persons instead of the radio, meaning I have to go back to my car to obtain licesne and warrant status. Its unsettling to tell someone you know is armed that they're under arrest when you previously had an opportunity to disarm them. After reading this article I will have to re-evaluate my methods, but I'm still leaning toward disarming until the encounter is completed so I know I'm going home.
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Further down I saw this.....

Excellent article. I am also from Colorado and the author described exactly how I interact with CCW carriers. I always assume that everyone I contact is armed. I contact CCW people all the time and I have found that my attitude towards them (and I am pro-CCW) goes a long way to defusing the situation. Of course, if I need to disarm someone, I won't hesitate to.
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Now which of these two officers are likely to have fewer problems and a better relationship with the community they serve?
 
A cop tries to break the mold and be sincerely sympathetic to those out of uniform and he is belittled and insulted. Why is it that you think that cops feel the way to do towards the public? It is because reguardless what we do we have our faces spit in. Thanks to all those who accepted the handshake offered by the police author who only wanted improve the civilian image of CCW. And for the rest of you, go ahead and keep the fact that your carrying a weapon to yourself, be beligerent in your argument with the police when encountered legally, and find out just how bullet proof the constitution is when you mistakenly reveal the gun you wanted to keep secret.
 
shootist, that isn't extending a handshake, that isn't being sympathetic, what he is doing is giving a half arsed pretense of being sympathetic. He still treats citizens as subjects, he just pretends to be a little more friendly about it.
 
A cop tries to break the mold and be sincerely sympathetic to those out of uniform and he is belittled and insulted. Why is it that you think that cops feel the way to do towards the public? It is because reguardless what we do we have our faces spit in. Thanks to all those who accepted the handshake offered by the police author who only wanted improve the civilian image of CCW. And for the rest of you, go ahead and keep the fact that your carrying a weapon to yourself, be beligerent in your argument with the police when encountered legally, and find out just how bullet proof the constitution is when you mistakenly reveal the gun you wanted to keep secret.
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Exactly what the heck are you talking about?

I don't see that anyone either belittled or insulted the author of the article, if they did then please point out who and what was said as I obviously missed it.
 
And for the rest of you, go ahead and keep the fact that your carrying a weapon to yourself, be beligerent in your argument with the police when encountered legally, and find out just how bullet proof the constitution is when you mistakenly reveal the gun you wanted to keep secret.
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I do what the law requires, nothing more, nothing less.

If the law REQUIRES me to notify, I do. If it doesn't, I don't. It's as simple as that.

If you don't like that, the problem is with you and no one else.

Nobody has to like the law, citizen or LEO. They just have to OBEY it.
 
I would in no way assist a officer in a firefight. My firearm is for my protection, not to assist law enforcement which I have no business doing.
It would depend upon where I happened to be.

Where I live now, I would consider it.

Where I'm from, I wouldn't in a million years, nor become involved in any other way, including dialing 911.
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This was discussed a month or so back in regards to being in a parking lot and witnessing an ambush develop on a lone officer, and whether you, also carrying, should get involved.

The consensus was that if any backup were to come you would be in BIG trouble if you were seen brandishing and firing in the vicinity of an officer. Well, that or dead.

Still, if (hypothetical-2 armed criminals ambush one officer) the officer incapacitates one perp but is wounded and incapacitated by the other, I wouldn't be able to "be a good witness" to a gangland execution of a police officer.
 
I would in no way assist a officer in a firefight. My firearm is for my protection, not to assist law enforcement which I have no business doing.
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That would depend entirely on the situation. There was an incident several years back where a motorist opened fire on a trooper here. Thankfully, a motorist followed the individuals so fellow officers were able to locate them quickly.

http://www.lexisone.com/lx1/caselaw/freecaselaw?action=OCLGetCaseDetail&format=FULL&sourceID=gdii&searchTerm=eQTe.Kjaa.UYGY.gdah&searchFlag=y&l1loc=FCLOW

I would treat any leo the same as any other person in that I would help them if I could, and if it were justified for me to do so. It would all boil down to the circumstances.

I wouldn't be able to "be a good witness" to a gangland execution of a police officer.
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I feel the same. Except maybe I would word it like this:

I wouldn't be able to "be a good witness" to a gangland execution of a [strike]police officer[/strike] fellow human being.
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I would treat the officer as a person even if he was the type of officer that would treat me as a suspect. I'm a firm believer in karma (or whatever you want to call it) and that whole "do unto others" thing... :D
 
I find it really sad when cops have to write articles describing how to deal with LAW ABIDING CITIZENS!
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It's necessary. Sadly, there are those in law enforcement that do not think citizens should be armed. If a "good cop" doesn't address these officers, they will continue their way of thinking. Maybe if one "holier than thou" type reads this, it will be worth it.

FWIW you get this in every profession. I've seen countless seminars available to IT folk such as myself on how to deal with non IT folks. Some of us are helpful, others in my profession are narcissistic jerks. Sometimes the narcissistic jerks need to read an article from one of their own kind before they start seeing others as people needing help instead of "ignorant users that break stuff" just as some officers may read this and stop viewing a ccw'er as a potential perp and treat us like any other law abiding citizen.
 
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