The PoliceOne Firearms Corner - CCW from a LEO's eyes

Status
Not open for further replies.
Considering the source of the article, I found it fairly well balanced and on point to the target audience. I don't see how anyone would reasonably consider the author anti-CCW.

As far as working/active law enforcement in the US?

Here's some revised statistics from the Office of Justice Programs, Bureau of Justice Statistics.

This first .pdf document is only for local & state LE, BTW. It doesn't include federal LE.
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/csllea04.pdf

Press release version (much less detailed):
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/press/csllea04pr.cfm

Here's the same info for federal cops in .pdf document:
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/fleo04.pdf

Shorter topic info for fed cops:
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=74

So, yes we have upwards of more than 835K full-time working cops ... as of 2004.
 
others in my profession are narcissistic jerks

Yeah, but looking askance at someone who has a question about Excel doesn't deprive anyone of any fundamental human rights, and the biggest ******* to ever hoard a root password never team-beat a passerby with batons, then threw him in jail.
 
Yeah, but looking askance at someone who has a question about Excel doesn't deprive anyone of any fundamental human rights, and the biggest ******* to ever hoard a root password never team-beat a passerby with batons, then threw him in jail.

True, but we can't treat all LEO's as if they are all guilty of that. There are some good ones.

If we treat them all according to how the worst behave, isn't that exactly what the bad ones are doing to us? Maybe the author is simply reaching out to fellow officers that need to readjust their attitude? If he were confrontational about it to these guys, I doubt he would get his point across at all.
 
All in all it´s a fair article. At least the author advises other LEOs to lean toward treating CCWs with respect and backs that advice with logic.

I am inclined to think that it is a higher percentage of ordinary citizens, not the police, who harbor the assumption that those who legally carry are borderline psychos just looking for a chance to commit violence.
 
I agree with that Roswell Kid. LEOs (most) understand why people may need a firearm, most other people want to believe the world is not really like that.

One time in a lecture we were asked to rate the real world like a movie, I was amazed by how many people gave the world a PG rating. The world is XXX, at least, with out a doubt.

That is a good read. Very fair, keep in mind also that it is written for LEO's and LEO's are trained to see EVERYONE as a potential threat.

Thats just a reality in police work.
 
835K full-time working cops ... as of 2004

In 2004, we had 18.5 percent more offerers than today. Our department was fortunate as we didn't have to lay any off but many have been reduced greatly through attrition.
 
No, not guilty. I think the word is 'capable'.
My liberty and indeed my physical safety demand that I treat any cop whom I involuntarily encounter as potentially dangerous to me. That doesn't mean I have to be rude to him. It does mean that I need to stick strictly to the letter of the law, politely refuse to speak without benefit of counsel or to consent to any searches and where lawful, to always use a voice recorder. Those are lessons based on personal experience and observation and the hard won experience of others.

The police can like that or not. It's the law and obedience of the law is completely non-optional for citizens and LEOs.
 
This guy described my mannerisms and fashion sense on par...It's actually kind of creepy how accurate this article was, at least in reference to me. haha
 
No, not guilty. I think the word is 'capable'.

Exactly.

Also, LEOs are entrusted with a good deal of power. With this, come strict standards, required to protect our liberty and physical safety, per Deanimator.

Who cares if the guy who runs the front office of a tire store has a few beers at lunch? It matters more if the guy who installs tires and brakes does. It matters even more if the guy whose truck is in for maintenance has a few beers at lunch. It matters more, still, if it's an air traffic controller, an airline pilot, or a school bus driver.

The fact is, cops' attitudes, beliefs and behavior matter more than the attitudes, beliefs and behaviors of the average person walking down the street without bothering anyone. It's the nature of the job.

I know good cops. I like them. I don't have a blanket negative opinion about police officers.

However, unless LEOs are held to high standards, commensurate with the power entrusted to them, they are very dangerous.

Ever been to Mexico, or any other place where extreme levels of police corruption are considered the norm? If not, I suggest you subject yourself to the experience, for a sense of perspective.
 
BTW I did not find the article offensive. I thought it was quite good, and its attitude to be good.

Personally, I favor pocket carry a lot of the time, so the whole "mode of dress" thing doesn't fit, other than that I usually wear a decent belt and I don't look like a dirtbag.:)
 
BTW I did not find the article offensive. I thought it was quite good, and its attitude to be good.

Excuse me! I apparently read your post too fast while i was glancing at the thread while on break. I thought you meant the article offended you. I apologize.

The mode of dress thing did remind me of an incident after work. I left work and went straight to the range. I slipped on my glock in a blackhawk serpa holster, a double mag holder and open carried while I stopped for gas by the interstate. The lady next to me asked for directions, she started the conversation with "Excuse me, officer..."

After that I no longer open carried while wearing khakis and a polo tucked in. From that point forward I felt like a wanna-be leo or something if i dressed like that. I decided I'd either use a tuckable holster or just put it on at the range.
 
Good article.

I thought the comments about the CHL "uniform" was pretty funny. All you "tacticool" fashionista's know who you are! :neener:
 
In 2004, we had 18.5 percent more offerers than today. Our department was fortunate as we didn't have to lay any off but many have been reduced greatly through attrition.

Howdy,

I'm also a bit curious about the next round of statistics that surface, although it might take the round after that if it's only from 2008, before the money really started drying up for safety services.

Also, the generational retirement waves have been rolling in for folks in my hiring period (I've been retired for over a year) with some leftovers from even earlier. (I've always found it perplexing how some folks I've known could do 40-45+ years in LE work. :scrutiny: I didn't make it to 30 years before I realized one day that it was time to go. )

We might see a reduction in the state & local numbers next time around, because of the dwindling dollars cities, counties & states have available to spend on safety services ... but it wouldn't surprise me to see an upswing in the federal numbers.

BTW, the whole "uniform" idea for non-LE CCW folks might be a bit variable, depending on the demographics of the area involved, perhaps. I've volunteered to help teach/teach quite a number of classes attended by CCW licensees over the years, and very few of them had any sort of a 'tactical appearance' perspective when it came to choice of clothing and gear. The selection of CCW holsters I've seen would likely make the staunch firearms enthusiasts of forums like this blanch & shudder. :neener:

I've spoken to more of them than not who acknowledged to only having practiced right before they either got their license, or were getting ready for renewals.

The ones who arrived to class dressed in IDPA-type tactical apparel seen in gun magazines or 5.11 catalogs could be counted on maybe the fingers of 2 hands, and that's out of a few hundred folks. ;)
 
Last edited:
If I'm pulled over or approached by a LEO I immediately inform them that I am armed and try to exhibit a non threatening posture i.e I put both my hands out the window and inform the officer that I'm armed. I have no problem letting an officer hold on to my firearm during the stop. If he's an jerk --<Sam>about it then I call and file a complaint when I get home. Until then it's yes sir, no sir. After all, we all want to go home at the end of the day.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I would in no way assist a officer in a firefight. My firearm is for my protection, not to assist law enforcement which I have no business doing.

Anyone who has ever served in the military in combat or as a LEO has put his or her life on the line to defend PEOPLE the vast majority of whom they didn't even know. Many of those they defended probably wouldn't even walk accross the street to P**S on their defender if he or she were on fire, because they looked at the soldier or the officer as "baby killers, war mongers, and pigs". Yet the defender still did their job and defended those who hated them because mixed in with those who have no appreciation for the sacrifice being made are the vast majority of the citizens of this great nation who do appreciate the sacrifice and would do the same for them if called upon. I would (and have) put my life on the line for millions of PEOPLE who I have very strong differences with politically and morally. And as I said I didn't even know the vast majority of them. I WOULD come to the aid of an officer in a fire fight if I could, and I'd worry about his or her politics and views on other matters after the SHTF situation was stable.

BTW, I believe the statistics say that over 95% of LEOs nation wide are FOR CCW.
 
Whether or not we'd aid a LEO in need of assistance (and how to properly, legally, and safely do so) is a very valid discussion to have, but it strays from the topic of THIS thread.

Let's not derail this interesting discussion with a secondary (and likely to become heated) debate.

If you want to discuss citizens using force to aid an officer, start a separate thread on that topic.
 
An outstanding article. I spent my life working in the criminal justice system and during that time period and continuing today if I should encounter an LEO roadside I would let them know I have a firearm on me. If the officer doesn't know me and most today do not, I would feel a bit safer knowing the officer wouldn't note my firearm otherwise and assume the worst.

I would hand my firearm permit papers with my drivers license and while I would not like it if disarmed I appreciate the initial motivation to be so. It's less about my own rights at that moment and more so about the officers comfort that I understand.

My opinion is obviously subject to flames as many permit holders would see it as an unfair intrusion to be initially treated like someone they are not but conversely I would ask and want to see their identification if someone claimed to be an LEO outside of uniform.

I appreciate being disarmed when compared to the officer showing me ID verification isn't quite the same but they are both understandable situations, no absolute trust until verified.
 
My liberty and indeed my physical safety demand that I treat any cop whom I involuntarily encounter as potentially dangerous to me.

Feeling this way yourself, you obviously don't begrudge LE to look at unknown people in the same manner, right? ;) (Whether they meet those other folks voluntarily or involuntarily.)

When I was working, and operating in my plainclothes assignment in another jurisdiction (or when off-duty in another jurisdiction), if I had occasion to come into contact with the local LE I expected them to treat me with a certain due caution until they could verify my status and that I was not a danger to their officer safety. I didn't take it personally, I looked at it professionally. Some were more lackadaisical about it than others, some were a bit more abrupt about it than others and some were professionally polite. Human nature.

Unfortunately, the daily events and circumstances of our world often present more threatening situations than many folks may care to realize or desire to admit. Their prerogative.

Considering the significantly greater numbers of non-LE folks than LE folks in our great country, and perhaps the greater number of non-LE folks lawfully carrying concealed weapons (via license, permit or other local law) than LE carrying weapons by badge and sworn office ... and naturally those folks unlawfully carrying weapons, and of criminal inclination ... it makes it harder for LE to immediately & clearly recognize a potential threat. No dedicated uniforms making it easy to readily identify everyone and recognize their affiliation. ;)

Now, this thread has become side-tracked with a number of other topics, a few of which are a bit dismaying and probably not exactly denoting the best of some folks and their beliefs and opinions. Human nature, again. (I am not directing this against any particular individual, nor should the brief quotation I used be construed to mean I'm directing it to the thread contributor who wrote it.)

LE must be held to a very high standard. The office requires public trust and the public deserves having that trust vindicated. Nothing less is acceptable.

LE hires from the within the public it serves. This can sometimes result in selections and choices which turn out to be regrettable, but those can be identified, addressed and resolved by the professional standards ("internal affairs", etc) mechanisms in place. Or, the criminal justice system, if it comes to that.

One further thought. Because of the greater sheer numbers of non-LE to LE in our country, it would seem to be possible for more non-LE to potentially develop the "us-versus-them" mental schism than LE. More's the pity. Those among us who have accepted the burden and responsibility of being the public servants and keepers of the peace who work to uphold the laws, preserve the public peace, investigate suspected criminal activity and bring suspected violators before the court have a hard enough time dealing with the criminally inclined.

The people that dedicate themselves to act in the capacity of law enforcement are chosen from among us, folks.

We are they, by individual choice and by being sworn to that public office. If we are to be deserving of trust among ourselves, and desire it from others, so must we trust in those who we have allowed to dedicate themselves to acting in the role to help preserve and protect our way of life, according to the laws we have chosen and enacted as a society. Too many people try to drag things down to a personal level, when it should remain an impartial, non-personal, professional matter. (And by people, I DO include some occasional folks who have chosen LE as a career and may not have acquired the maturity and professional perspective required to serve in that role in the manner desired of them by their employers and the public they serve. That's why we have supervisors, managers, admin, command & executive level LE, though, folks. To be vigilant to such potential problems. )

If someone violates that sacred public trust, that's something to be vigilantly identified, investigated and addressed in the proper manner.

LE must be held to a high standard. I remembered that each and every day during my career. I taught that to those I trained, too, as I was previously taught.

There is no "us versus them". There's "us serving ourselves", and our chosen way of life, adhering to principles and laws crafted among ourselves, adhering to established freedoms upon which our country was founded, long respected and cherished, representing the freedoms we alone enjoy when considering the many other peoples and countries of the world.

Just my thoughts.
 
Last edited:
My liberty and indeed my physical safety demand that I treat any cop whom I involuntarily encounter as potentially dangerous to me.
Feeling this way yourself, you obviously don't begrudge LE to look at unknown people in the same manner, right? (Whether they meet those other folks voluntarily or involuntarily.)
I would be astonished if they didn't. The overwhelming evidence indicates that in fact they do, sometimes within the limits of the law, sometimes not.

LE must be held to a very high standard.
Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't. Where I'm from, they typically aren't. Where I live now, they generally are.

One further thought. Because of the greater sheer numbers of non-LE to LE in our country, it would seem to be possible for more non-LE to potentially develop the "us-versus-them" mental schism than LE. More's the pity. Those among us who have accepted the burden and responsibility of being the public servants and keepers of the peace who work to uphold the laws, preserve the public peace, investigate suspected criminal activity and bring suspected violators before the court have a hard enough time dealing with the criminally inclined.
There's no benefit at all in me "trusting" an LEO in an involuntary encounter and infinite risk of serious harm. Experience and observation indicates that it's foolish for me to do so.

Neither the LEO nor I have any legal obligation except to obey the law as written. "Trust" is nowhere in the equation. If the LEO obeys the law, at most I have a problem with the law. I vehemently disagree with the requirement to notify an LEO that I am carrying (and ONLY when I'm carrying) when I'm stopped for a law enforcement purpose. I also vehemently disagree with the ban on carrying in liquor serving restaurants, even when I'm not consuming alcohol (which I NEVER do when carrying). I can fault those laws. I cannot fault the LEO for enforcing them. Likewise the LEO has no valid complaint against me if I obey the law. He doesn't have to like that I can carry concealed, open carry or record any conversations we might have. He merely has to obey the law. We both do.

People take precautions to protect themselves during police encounters because they see what happens when people don't. I can "trust" that total stranger whose motivations are totally unknown (and unknowable) to me or I can obey the law and assert my rights. The latter sounds MUCH more prudent to me.
 
While I have reservations about some of the statements made by the LEO who wrote the article, I did find it interesting and I believe he had "good intentions". I don't beleive he is anti CCW, but I do think he and all LEOs have to be cautious when approaching anyone in the capacity of performing his duties. As citizens, we also have to be cautious when approached by an LEO because we don't know who he or she is either. Over all though, I thought it was a good article.
 
Deanimator said:
An interesting "idea"... as long as you're not a 110lb. woman faced with a 210lb. rapist, or a 70 year old man set upon by a 22 year old, 6'2" bodybuilder, or a lone Ethiopian legal immigrant set upon by skinheads with bats.

What you propose is to put society in the hands of large, strong men, with edged weapons and clubs. We tried that. It was called "the dark ages".
An excellent post.
 
A cop tries to break the mold and be sincerely sympathetic to those out of uniform and he is belittled and insulted. Why is it that you think that cops feel the way to do towards the public? It is because reguardless what we do we have our faces spit in.
Why is it do you think that citizens feel the way they do about cops? Why do so many cops seem to spit in so many citizens faces the moment we make contact with them?

Why do you think 10s of millions of Americans do not look at cops as "the good guys", but rather just as another form of "bad guy?"

Self reflection should be a critical skill of all cops (and all people) everywhere.

EDIT TO ADD: By the way, i have aided LEO's in times of need a few times, and i have also apprehended criminals trying to escape the scene a few times as well. As an ex soldier, i kind of feel like it's a life time duty to protect my fellow Americans...

Also, when pulled over, i have my permit out and handy, but i DO NOT mention i'm carrying unless asked, or if asked to step out of the car. At that time i hand over the permit immediately and inform the cop i'm armed, and where it is.

There is NO NEED to rattle a cop by telling him you're armed unless the situation calls for it.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top