The problem with mouseguns?

[Shmackey]

Been thinking about the practicality of carrying a pocket gun only.

The need to make an extremely accurate shot at 25 yards should be very rare, but I can think of situations in which it would be imperative. I'm talking about a grapefruit-sized shot, to use a citrus euphemism.

In those situations, especially if I have the time to take good aim, I'd be confident in making a lights-out shot with a familiar 1911. With a pocket gun, however--even with single-action capability, like a non-shrouded J-frame--that kind of shot would not be reasonable.

Hence my plan to replace my pocket gun with a lightweight CCO-sized 1911. Not nearly as carryable, but more so than a steel Commander--and I wouldn't have to worry about carrying a gun that can take only certain kinds of shots with confidence.

Y'know?

 

[Wildalaska]

Schmack, ya pop someone at 25 yards as an armed civilan yer gettin indicted no matter what....


If he aint on top of you, you shouldnt be pullin the trgger..

Unless ita a bear...

WildmousegunsarefineAlaska

 

[natedog]

What if an assailant has a gun at 25 yards or more and is firing at you? I find it hard to believe that you'd get indicted based on range alone. Justified self-defense is justified self-defense. Even if it was written that self-defense is only applicable to 25 yards or less, so what?

"It is better to be judged by twelve than to be carried by six"

 

[Croyance]

I thought mouseguns were anything .32 ACP and bellow. Maybe it includes .380 ACP. A J-frame would be .38 Special or .357 Magnum, right?

I was concerned with effectiveness of caliber when I got my first carry gun. I also wanted grips I could get a good handle of and sights I can see. Mouseguns seem to lack all three for me.

 

[Wildalaska]

What if an assailant has a gun at 25 yards or more and is firing at you? I find it hard to believe that you'd get indicted based on range alone. Justified self-defense is justified self-defense. Even if it was written that self-defense is only applicable to 25 yards or less, so what?

OK, listen up, this aint the Wild West, and life is a little more complicated that you will read on internet Boards....

All things being equal, you pop someone at 25 yards and your gonna get indicted...no ifs, no ands, no buts...ya see at that distance a tiny little flaw in the law called "duty to retreat" kicks in...

And even if yer lucky and dont get indicted, your gonna be paying some stiff legal fees before ya get cleared.

The world is full of "what ifs"...but lets analyze yours....some some dude starts shootin at ya from 25 yards away...ya just draw yer highly modified combat peice and start blazing away, mano a mano like High Noon

Or do ya take cover, cell phone in one hand and mouse gun in the other....

"It is better to be judged by twelve than to be carried by six"

Whe yer old enough to pay yer own legal fees, we will see if you are still saying that...

25 years ago, an old Buffalo NY Police Officer, taught me the essence of self defense (he carried a Baby Browning off duty) that Ive remebered to this day:

1. A weapon in his hand and powder burns on his skin are two of the best things that can happen to ya.
2. Los muertes no habla.


WildlessonsfromlifeAlaska

 

[Old Fuff]

Wildalaska has made a point that often overlooked. Police officers, even when off-duty, have an obligation and responsibility to apprehend criminals. Private citizens do not. "Ordinary folks" have a right in most places to use deadly force to protect themselves against a potentially lethal attack - if and when they have no other reasonable options. This is something many of us may not like, but it's something everyone should understand.

It is unlikely that one will be faced with a situation where the distance is over 10 or 12 yards, and they can't disengage and separate themselves from the attacker. Further, in most cases when the bad guy finds out the chosen victim is armed he'll be the one that disengages.

This is not to say that Shmackey shouldn't carry the lightweight .45 he has in mind, but rather that he may be doing the right thing for the wrong reason.

 

[buy guns]

Schmack, ya pop someone at 25 yards as an armed civilan yer gettin indicted no matter what....

but what about in florida where you can use deadly force to stop someone who is in the act of committing a felony or in texas where you can use deadly force to stop someone breaking into your car on your property

 

[natedog]

If you're able to run away, by all means do so. Running seems like a LOT better idea than shooting someone. But, couldn't there be a situation that dictates running is not an option? You are cornered/trapped/have children/elderly/handicapped, etc.

No one's proposing "going mano a mano like High Noon".

I'm not saying it's likely, but if the situation dictated a shot at 25 yards or longer, I still highly doubt that you'd be "indicted no matter what".

Would you honestly rather be dead than have to pay legal fees/go to jail?

 

[stans]

Generally speaking, any shooting that takes place at more than about 7 yards gets close scrutiny by the police. At 25 yards, odds are pretty good you will be going to court, probably as a defendant, and that is not the side of the courtroom you want to occupy. Most self-defense shootings occur at ranges well under 7 yards, most frequently contact range out to about 3 or 4 yards.

 

[Majic]

The duty to retreat laws only apply if you have a safe way to retreat. If not then the law can be ignored.

 

[Rabbit9]

The need to make an extremely accurate shot at 25 yards should be very rare, but I can think of situations in which it would be imperative. I'm talking about a grapefruit-sized shot, to use a citrus euphemism.

I won't even get into the legalityof taking such a shot. But under fire, when the human bodies "fight or flight" reflexes kick in and the adrenaline flows, I would certainly question your ability to make a "grapefruit-sized" shot.

 

[ChristopherG]

But under fire, when the human bodies "fight or flight" reflexes kick in and the adrenaline flows, I would certainly question your ability to make a "grapefruit-sized" shot.

For real. In fact, anyone who has any exposure to competitive practical shooting will have seen that many very superb shooters cannot reliably hit targets considerably larger than any conceivable citrus fruit under the mere pressure of the CLOCK. Nothing will dispel the fantasy of cool-headed sharpshooting under severe pressure like exposure to the mild pressure of competition.

 

[goalie]

Nothing will dispel the fantasy of cool-headed sharpshooting under severe pressure like exposure to the mild pressure of competition.

I've seen it done in combat. There are people that can do it. Unfortunately, the odds are very strong against myself or anyone in this thread being one of those people. (Actually, it is 100% certain that I am not one of them, YMMV)

Then again, when the defecation hits the oscillation, I can run like you wouldn't believe while still staying low, and I was once told that I would probably be able to find good cover in an empty parking lot.

One thing I do know is that the odds are greater that my wife will come home from work with a supermodel and tell me that she wants to live out a fantasy than they are of me ever taking a 25 yard handgun shot as a civilian. Remember, Heros have an alarming tendancy to be dead.

 

[buy guns]

the defecation hits the oscillation

haha i love that

 

[Croyance]

natedog, examination by the local DA is not going to be any fun. You will be looking at a Grand Jury. A DA can get anything he wants out of a Grand Jury. He controls the witnesses and questions. There is no cross examination and people only have their lawyer outside the Grand Jury. Think about how it will play in the papers. He will be seeking a recommendation to indite or not based on public reaction. You will then be looking at a plea bargin offer.
As a minor, your parents have a legal responsibility to pick up your legal tab. Then again, they get to choose the lawyer. Be responsible with other people's resources.
At 25 yards, in most places there is going to be concealment and/or cover. Use it.
You legally own any bullets coming out of your gun, no matter what the reason for discharging the gun. Realize that even within 7 yards people miss wildly. Understand that if that bullet hits an innocent bystander, it will be you and not the criminal that has legal responsibility.

buyguns, if I am protecting another or stopping a felony, I would still close distance. I am not betting that in such a pressure packed situation, I am as cool as Clint Eastwood.

 

[Maddock]

The need to make an extremely accurate shot at 25 yards should be very rare, but I can think of situations in which it would be imperative. I'm talking about a grapefruit-sized shot, to use a citrus euphemism.

I find it much more likely to need to hit a target the size of a lemon (let’s keep it citrusy) at ten feet. Or a moving watermelon (sorry, I can’t think of another fruit that big) at five feet. The few confrontations that I have experienced and those that I have personally learned of have been at such close range that the “marksmanship†problem is not the issue – the issues are gun handling, situational awareness and will/decisiveness.

I find that the problem with mouse guns is not a lack of inherent accuracy, but poor sights and ergonomics, to go along with their lack of power.

After saying all that, the best (and longest) shot that I know of firsthand in self-defense was by the man who sold me my first 25-2. One shot, eighty feet, in an apartment parking lot, at night, low light. The assailant was standing behind a car and exposed from the waist up. This was done with a department issued, out of the box K-frame. At the time I was heavily involved in IPSC and the consensus at the local clubs was that this was an exceptionally fine shot. Our membership included National, International, Bianchi Cup and Steel Challenge Champions. What was admired was not primarily his marksmanship, but his coolness, awareness and decisiveness.

 

[azrael]

ahh what Wild said...except for the bear thing...They are out FRIENDS!!!! just not when the are closer than 15 yards headed my way...Although I will say this: The bears that I am likely to walk up on in the woods only get to be about 230lbs...Thats a CUB in AK..

 

[Shmackey]

Urf. I go away for a day and look what happens...

OK. This is the kind of scenario I had in mind:

You come home from work. As you walk up to your house, you see (through an open window, in the backyard, etc.) your wife/kid being held at knifepoint. The perpetrator appears violent (obviously) and none too rational. He's got the tip of the knife on someone's chest. He can't see you, but you see him.

Yes, one should expect to be indicted. However, sometimes you need to do what you need to do.

So, let's assume that there are at least a few situations in which you'd need to take such a shot. I couldn't do it with a pocket gun (perhaps "mousegun" was the wrong choice of words). I agree the issue isn't necessarily inherent accuracy so much as ergonomics, sights, and so on.

Just throwing it out there...

Shm_istillcarryapocketgunfornow_ackey

P.S. I like bears too.

 

[Rabbit9]

You come home from work. As you walk up to your house, you see (through an open window, in the backyard, etc.) your wife/kid being held at knifepoint. The perpetrator appears violent (obviously) and none too rational. He's got the tip of the knife on someone's chest. He can't see you, but you see him.

Given this scenario, I wouldn't take that shot with ANY pistol. To prevent the perp from killing one of your family members even after you shoot him, you must place the bullet in the cranio-ocular cavity. You're shooting at a "peach pit" not a grapefruit, and unlike fixed position targets (citrus or otherwise), that target can and will move. You've described a scenario which would be difficult for a trained marksman with a precision rifle.

I would sugguest grabbing the cell phone instead of the pistol.

 

[MrPink]

Well, all kinds of self-defense situations are hypothetical - "I was walking in the mall the other day......" to "I was attacked by a truck load of Al Qaeda terrorist firing AKs....."

So if you prepare yourself for the hypothetical, you'd probably end up carrying an M14, a pair of 1911s, a BUG and a mouse gun. Also an armored vest, lots of ammo, flashlight, NV, cell phone and a radio for when the terrorist take out the cell tower. Actually best way to be prepared for the hypothetical would be to stay home.

My strategy is to best arm yourself for the plausible and reasonably foreseeable. I have been CCwing for oh, about 10 years now. I have never needed to draw my gun. Does that mean I don't need to carry one? Well, no because my possible need to use a gun revolves around scenarios of getting mugged or some other close-in violent situation. Hence my carry of a pocket gun (S&W340PD). I figure enough close in stopping power should I need it.

With the DC sniper taking pot shots at random folk, did I arm myself with a countersniper rig? No, but to tell you the truth, I added the 1911 into daily carry that I hadn't carried in a while.

What am I trying to say here? Arm yourself for the plausible not the possible. Its a qualitative assessment - but 7 yard scenarios sound more plausible than 25.

 

[Mannlicher]

The problems with mouseguns, other than the fact that they are mouse guns, are limited magazine capacity, inneffective cartridge, short sight radius, limited accuracy, bright muzzle flash at night, and a certain about of over confidence that they seem to instill in folks.

 

[Nick96]

Carry what you want, but consider this. Where I live the temp. + humidity heat index today was around 107 degrees. In other words, you couldn't walk to the end of the block without looking like you just came from a wet tee shirt contest. On the other hand if you are in the air conditioning, how much long distance accuracy do you really need?

Given these conditions, smaller & lighter is better than nothing at all. But, if you want to go to the trouble & discomfort of carrying something larger & heavier - power to you. But the likelyhood of really needing to is probably pretty remote.

 

[albanian]

What if your at the end of a 25 yard long hallway and there is no exit?

 

[JERRY]

stop trying to get your handgun to perform like a rifle.

a mouse gun isnt for long shots, its for point blank attacks.....use your service sized gun for your mile long shots and leave the mouse in your pocket 'til appropriate.......


trying to use a mouse gun for long range shooting is like trying to use a 1911 for pocket carry.


use your gun in its proper capasity and youll be fine if you train as you should.

 

[Safety First]

I'm not in the legal field, but from what i understand the duty to flee varies from one state to another. Most states say you have to flee if able,plain simple truth is, that's just the smart thing for anyone to do IF it is possible. If it is at all possible to avoid using deadly force that you will have to defend with very expensive attorneys later, it would seem flight is the prudent choice. Lets hope we never have to make the choice,but if so just be prepared.