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The RUGER OLD ARMY Club

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by ClemBert, Aug 11, 2010.

  1. J-Bar

    J-Bar Member

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    I believe you refuse to accept the evidence before you, in post #1065. By the way congratulations on taking a deer with a muzzleloader. I think any game taken by any muzzleloader is a trophy and I offer my sincere congratulations.

    The trophy you took fell to a heavy relatively non-expanding chunk of lead, not to the high tech jacketed expanding bullet. There is nothing that would make the deer deader. A deeply penetrating large diameter lead ball in the right place will not leave you much of a tracking chore. That expanding bullet would have, if you did not have your ROA as backup. What happened to you is not a fluke.

    And I don't think using pistol primers to ignite the powder charge would make any noticeable difference. A chrono might tell you that you added a few feet per second, but terminal performance on the game would be the same. It went all the way through with a cap for crying out loud.
     
  2. Jaymo

    Jaymo Member

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    I think a wide, flat nosed boolit would be your best bet. It'll punch a nearly full caliber hole through the deer, much like a hole punch does with paper.
    Especially if it's hard cast. Then, you have a hole in the deer that will bleed profusely and won't close up.
    Good enough for big, dangerous game, good enough for medium game.
    Pistols don't generate the velocity needed to deliver the level of hydrostatic shock that a rifle round generates. So, we load them to punch a clean, free bleeding hole that gives us a good blood trail do follow, and a game animal that dies quickly.
     
  3. jgray

    jgray Member

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    Primer capsules

    Hi Doak,

    Very interesting concept! Sent you a PM.
    Appreciate your efforts.

    Regards,

    Jgray
     
  4. Onty

    Onty Member

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    Marvellous work Doak!

    I was thinking for a long time about different concept using boxer primers; back plate with firing pins (as for conversion cylinder for standard cartridge), with cylinder bored to accept boxer primer:

    [​IMG]

    With this setup, I will have just two parts to handle; cylinder and back plate with firing pins. Also, cylinder could be made to use 209 shotgun primers. In addition, here is adaptor that will allow using small pistol primers in cylinder bored for 209 primers:

    [​IMG]

    VariFlame Primer Adapter
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
  5. AbitNutz

    AbitNutz Member

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    Man I would like one with 209 primers! That brings new powders into play, like Blackhorn.

    I have a Kirst conversion. If that backplate could be leveraged to fire 209 primers, that would be awesome.
     
  6. AbitNutz

    AbitNutz Member

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    I have an ROA with a Kirst conversion and thus a back plate with firing pins. I also happen to have several ROA cylinders. I would be more than willing to send these to someone and have them modify the standard BP cylinder to fire 209 caps using the Kirst back plate....any takers? Doak? You up for it?
     
  7. Doak

    Doak Member

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    Onty

    Cool stuff! Love the simplicity! What I see in the fotos is the solution. I'd love to know what the problems are. :-D That's where the challenge is, yes?

    Kindest Regards,
    Doak
     
  8. AbitNutz

    AbitNutz Member

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    You really need to take me up on my offer and mod my spare cylinder to work with the Kirst back plate to fire 209 primers...

    It's close to Christmas....
     
  9. AbitNutz

    AbitNutz Member

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    This reminds me...with Doak's primer conversion....will the cap be hot enough to set off Blackhorn 209 powder? It should be. I suspect shotgun primer caps were used in today's B/P rifles because they are easier to handle. They're no hotter than standard rifle or pistol caps.
     
  10. Doak

    Doak Member

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    AbitNutz

    Wouldn't hurt to look at the stuff & see what comes to mind. Combined w/Onty's set up, it mite be a contender!
    Right now I'm kinda busy makin', what my wife calls "nubbins", primer capsules for you's guys.

    This would have to be on a "slow cooker", at least for the near future.

    You've got my fone & e-mail: rattle my cage after ya exhaust all your sensible options. :-D

    Ha! Be careful what ya wish for, ya mite get it!

    Kindest Regards,
    Doak
     
  11. Onty

    Onty Member

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    The problem is to make one and try it :D. I really urge you to go with this project ASAP, I can even start a thread for group buy (GB) on castboolits, to see what would be response. My suggestion is to get one of those conversion cylinders and use same method for back plate with firing pins.

    I will try to design another idea that would be awesome, to use safely smokeless powders in ROA. Many of us would like to shoot it in indoor ranges during cold days, especially in northern areas. Shooting ROA indoor, using black powder or one of those smoky substitutes, is big no-no in almost all indoor ranges. Also, I had seen corrosion on a number of stainless ROA-s, as a result of shooting all that highly corrosive stuff.

    BTW, I am looking for at least one, preferably couple spare stainless cylinders for ROA.
     
  12. kBob

    kBob Member

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    Onty,

    Trailboss? Do not compress. Not encouraging you to try it just wondering if there is any published data for it.

    -kBob
     
  13. BADUNAME30

    BADUNAME30 Member

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    Combining Onty's concept and Abitnutz' idea is the solution to a problem that has been eatin at me for over a year now.
    The ability to shoot rubber boolits in a ROA for indoor shootin.
    Mmm, but thinkin 'bout it, a 209 may be jist a weeeee bit hot fer rubber boolits.:uhoh:

    No wait !!!!! I jist realized that Doaks' setup will work just fine !!!!


    Oh boy, i can't wait wiggle.gif
     
  14. Patocazador

    Patocazador Member

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    I have shot nothing but real black powder in my stainless ROA for 15 years and it doesn't have any corrosion ... stains, yes .. but no corrosion.
     
  15. Onty

    Onty Member

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    I have to be more precise; I am not talking about deep corrosion that made whole gun looking red, but some red spots were clearly visible, especially around forcing cone and hammer. From what I understood, black powder isn't very bad, the real problem are those substitute powders.

    Back to design. Here is my proposal for ROA cylinder for smokeless powders and 209 primer:

    [​IMG]

    The idea is to have cylinder with stepped chambers, with front end .4520-.4525 dia (short counterbore about .456-.457 dia optional), and aft end about .430 dia, making powder space same as on loaded 45 Schofield when using 255-SWC like Lyman 454424 or other similar bullets. This will make cylinder wall about .085 thick between chambers in powder are, same as on 44 magnum SBH.

    Going this way, we can use 45 Schofield loading data, with built in safety feature that will prevent accidental reduce of powder space. When combined with same same quality and strength of the steel as on standard, modern centre fire revolvers, we should have safe and practical way of shooting smokeless powders in ROA. If you are concerned about .065˝ wall thickness between chambers in bullet area, please keep in mind that in conversion cylinders for shooting standard 45 Colt loads wall thickness is no more than .045 (probably less, I have no such cylinder to measure it), yet those cylinders are safe to shoot standard 45 Colt loads rated at 14 000 psi, see http://www.handloads.com/misc/saami.htm .

    Let me know what you think.

    Cheers, Onty.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2012
  16. SUMIKITO

    SUMIKITO Member

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    Cylinders for the Old Army......

    Interesting stuff, all of the above, BUT, using some sort of backplate with a stationary single firing pin just like the Kirst Kartridge Konverter would drastically REDUCE the size of the MAIN CYLINDER that holds your powder charge. You would end up with a SHORTY cylinder not capable of holding no more than maybe 25grs. of black powder!!! Now, however, using smokeless powders is another matter altogether and WOULD WORK FOR SURE, as all you need is a bit of space for that. A shorty cylinder equipped with nipples to fire regular boxer primers, loaded with the correct and proper smokeless powder, along with that stationary backplate Ala'Kirst with single firing pin would be the way to go. Yes, yes, that would work. We all know that would work. Like a charm it would! RIGHT? Of course it would work. But than how would we remove those spent boxer primers? Rather, how do we now de-cap the cylinder? Gotta have that tool....Right. Now, increased presures and velocity from our now smokeless firing cylinder would dictate, NO, mandate actually, that our bullet be extra tight in that cylinder, can't use pure lead, it would jump the cylinder in recoil and would jam-up the cylinder after the first shot! Not so good! Nope, not good. Now maybe if we can crimp the cylinder to stop bullet jump. Wait! Crimp the cylinder! Oh my, am I nuts or what! Maybe a nice roll crimp on that cylinder would hold those slugs tight? Hard-cast bullets would be the way to go if we want them slugs to be tight. No lubes now 'cause that ain't gonna help. We will need a nice rammer or outboard loader with a long handle to press fit those jump-free bullets in there. Nice and tight. The only way to go! Wow! Velocity, heavy hard hitting slugs, clean burning powders, the reliability of modern boxer primers, etc. I ask myself.. .....Where is all these taking me? All of the above logical and great ideas ideas would work just fine as long as we don't try to magnumize the ROA with smokeless powders and hot loads. Too many variables step in. Or rather too many creepy scary variables start to set in if we are not carefull. Someone, somehow, somewhere will sort all these out I am sure. I will for now stick with my regular Kirst Konverters firing factory fodder without a worry in the world. They have worked fine for me for hundreds and hundreds of rounds without a hitch or problem at all. All the very best to you all, great ideas by the way! Really great ideas.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  17. The-Reaver

    The-Reaver Member

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    Just took old girl out yesterday.

    http://youtu.be/pPhy_tHqaVc

    27.5 FFF 220 Grain Conical and an Ox yoke wonder wad.

    On that third round a huge chunk of Cap landed on my hand and roasted it pretty good, but.... comes with the territory I guess =)
     
  18. Onty

    Onty Member

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    Great idea, just let us know how you crimped yours. Sorry, I couldn’t resist :D .

    As I mentioned, idea was to get 45 Schofield level loads, using smokeless powder, so we can shoot in indoor ranges when temperature dips bellow 0°F.

    Shooting wearing just T-shirt? Boy, I am jealous...

    See this thread, some interesting loads listed, http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=72845 . Also, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQVu3d3NpxU , look how much ROA rolls up.

    Another good source http://www.dixieslugs.com/images/ROA_complete_.pdf
     
  19. Jaymo

    Jaymo Member

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    Winters in the South are indeed nice. At least, when they're mild. When they're cold, they suck, because it's cold, wet, and windy.
    Summers are miserable, with humidity up to 100%, and temps in the high 90s to low 100s.

    My Blackhawk Flattop .44 Special rolls up like that with stout loads.
    I'd thought about using the Lee REAL bullet in the ROA. I have that mold, and cast for my .45 Sam Yang with it.
    Now, I have another use for it. I bet it'll hold a good bit of lube in those grooves.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2012
  20. BADUNAME30

    BADUNAME30 Member

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    Got me a package from Doak the other day.

    IMGP1855.JPG
    IMGP1857.JPG

    I will quickly say that that man is not only a blessing to our hobby and THE most unselfishly giving man that i have ever encountered,he is also a Master craftsman and a Master machinist. His attention to detail is second to none.
    Just as i anticipated,His work has opened up a whole new world of indoor shooting for Janet and I by allowing us to finaly shoot rubber boolits from our ROA's.
    I only got to quickly try some SPM primers under some X-Ring rubber boolits.I will soon try some standard SP primers and also some SR primers.
    I will also share my entire experience and my response to Doak and his reply just as soon as i get some time.
    For those of you fortunate enough to be on his mailing list...you are in for one SERIOUS treat.
    If yer gonna give the rubber boolits a try, seat the bullet before ya insert the primer or the air pocket won't let it seat.

    This is my initial 'report to Doak......
    His response.....
    BTW, yes, the rubber boolits did indeed make "it out of the end of the Bbl ".
    Accuracy was a bit irratic tho. 1.5" at about 20-25'.
    I'll try standard SP primers and SR primers and see if this improves.
    If i recall correctly, we get our best rubber boolit accuracy from our .38's usin SPM primers.

    Thanks to Doak, shooting ROA's for Janet and i has officialy moved indoors for the winter.[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2012
  21. Doak

    Doak Member

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    User's Guide: Primer Capsule Kit

    A copy of this User's Guide is shipped w/every kit. Might be good to have a copy here, on record, in case someone's goes missing.
    And y'all can become familiar w/the drill before your kit arrives.
    Takes about 2.5 weeks to complete a kit, baring interruptions, like Thanksgiving. :-D

    Doak
     

    Attached Files:

  22. Doak

    Doak Member

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    Last page of the Guide.
     

    Attached Files:

  23. Patocazador

    Patocazador Member

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    I can't wait. Christmas may be very good this year. :D
     
  24. 94RUGER

    94RUGER Member

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    I think I'm in need of a defibrillator, heart just skipped several beats. :)
     
  25. Yamavira

    Yamavira Member

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    Ruger Old Army Spares

    Hi from the UK
    I have recently bought a ROA which has been fitted with a modified cylinder enabling nitro powder & shotgun primers to be used.
    To load the cylinder is removed from the frame. then the back of the cylinder, with 6 firing pins, is removed. Shotgun primers are inserted into the back of the cylinder, the plate replaced & the cylinder refitted into the frame. A small quantity of nitro powder is added to each chamber & a ball or lead RN bullet seated on top of the powder. Works well.
    I have 3 questions.
    I know that this modified cylinder was manufactured on the USA & then imported into the UK. Can anyone suggest which USA company could have manufactured these cylinders.
    Spares for the ROA are few & far between. Is there a company which makes/sells nipples for the original black powder cylinder.
    Can wooden grips stil be bought for the revolver. Who markets them.

    In the UK we can no longer have nitro "handguns" but are permitted "muzzle loading" revolvers. Hence the demand for nitro cylinders. In addition we must have permission on our firearms ticket to own both the revolver & separately for the "additional" cylinder, whether that be the modified nitro cylinder or the original black powder cylinder.

    Cheers
    yamavira.:(
     

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