The shotgun War?

[dfariswheel]

I've been watching the news from Iraq since the start of the war, and I've noticed, that to paraphrase Fritz Hollings "There's an awful lot of that shotgunnin' goin' on".

During the war, I saw plenty of US troops carrying a variety of pump shotguns.

Now that we're engaged in a minor guerrilla war, I've been seeing shotguns on BOTH sides.

Just the other night I saw a US soldier using an apparent 870 to blow the lock off a fence, and when they arrested some Iraqi suspects, among the guns seized were.... two pump shotguns.

It seems that the shotgun has been re-discovered as a viable combat weapon, and not in a close range jungle war either.

Astoundingly, here in the 21st Century, the military shotgun rides again.

We're using a shell that hasn't changed much since 1870, a gun that's functionally about the same as models dating to 1897, and troops clamoring for 1911 pistols.

What's next, M1 Garand rifle assaults on Iraqi positions?

So, it looks like "what's old is new again".

 

[sm]

dfarriswheel, good to see you sir! I must agree with your observations.

A well designed tool is hard to improve on. Some try to re-invent the wheel or a better mousetrap. "More things change, the more they remain the same".

Shotguns are being re-discovered by some friends also...taking stuff off and finding out the basic concept and shell loadings as you pointed out are quite effective...especially when the shooter knows the shotgun.

Take care sir, and thanks for sharing some great observations.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Can't keep a good idea down. The negative things about a fighting shotgun are pretty well obviated in the context of a fire team. These include limited magazine capacity,heavy and bulky ammo, short range, and manual actuation.

The upsides include better breeching capability, massive energy unloading into the target for fast stops, simple MOA, and lowered probability of tagging friendlys or non combatants way out there.

I've seen a few shotguns in the news, including one 97. I haven't seen any of those new Benellis yet.

 

[Duke of Lawnchair]

Dave,

I met a few Marines at work (forgot which unit) who just came back from the sandbox. The topic of weapons arose. One had been issued the new Benelli and said he was quite pleased with it's performance (reliability was top notch). His "collegue" also said that the M16A4s ran like clockwork. Then again, my last two sentences seem to be "can-o-worm" openers in two forums, Shotungs and The Art of the Rifle.

Jim

 

[Dave McCracken]

Duke, glad to hear our folks have good reliable weapons, even if they're non 870s.

The M-16 I was issued jammed twice in my first A/S scenario. The newer ones have the bugs worked out. Still not enthused about the ammo, but the platform is not the cranky one of old.

I saw something on American Shooter recently about 3 gun. It was held in the desert, and ALL the high priced shoulder arms were FTFing. Dust was given as the reason. Some were Benellis.

 

[Correia]

Dave a lot of the big matches are in the desert. Dust is a real killer.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Not much dust here, and it was way too steamy in SEA for much there, so my experience is limited.

Mud's another thing.

Anyway, seeing all those autos glitch made me appreciate my 870s all the more.

 

[Gordon]

Where I was in the Ashau Valley and up near the Rock Pile the damn red fine dust was absolutely terrible. Helocopter traffic at fire support bases made it worse! Any hint of lube on anything would make your action load up with red mud. Sooooo we wiped every thing dry with cloths, Dri-Slided the moving parts with that weird smelling needle pointed metal can that you had to keep shaking. The carrier drys rather quick and you'r Dri-Sliding! Then it was a ciince to use a shaving brush to keep the dust off (we wore the brushes in our boony hats) and only cleaned the guns after they were fired , or back in a safe area.

 

[SMLE]

Here are some pics of current US Military personnel with shotguns. This was posted on another forum and I though it would go nicely with this thread.

Click here

 

[P95Carry]

''Tools for the job'' ........... seems to be the maxim to me. And as ever .... the venerable shottie does and can have its place.

Proviso being - that other members of ''the team'' have the other gear too!

Have wondered (idly) .... how useful at shorter ranges ... a rifled slug would be ..... or even sabotted slug in rifled barrel .... people tend not to get up from one of them ..... I'd imagine!

 

[SMLE]

The only limitation that I can see for shotguns on the modern battle field is overcoming body armor. At least with buckshot or lead slugs. You could certainly make armor defeating ammo, but then you get into swapping loads while in contact and trying to remember what you have loaded at any given moment. But you could just adjust your point of aim easily and put the buckshot in the BGs face or groin. Either one would be highly de-motivating. A shotgun as part of a team is obviously a great idea though. Just like having a SAW or GPMG and a M203 handy.

 

[Ky Larry]

I'm not surprised. If the Model 12, the 1911, and the M1 worked 50 years ago, there's no reason to think they wouldn't now. I'm glad my wife feels the same way about me.