What was wrong with Stoner's design?

[mljdeckard]

(Exactly. Never said I believed it. I only wanted to point out that what some guy tells you doesn't mean a whole lot.)

 

[Zundfolge]

I knew a guy who was in Somalia and said the targets would only go down only when they had about 5 rounds in them.

This is more a problem of issuing troops AP rounds when their targets are wearing t-shirts at most and high on khat.

Frankly if we'd dump the stupid Hague convention rules against JHPs we wouldn't have had such stopping problems with 5.56mm

 

[MachIVshooter]

Just being picky but maybe you mean the AR-10 from which the AR-15 was developed.

AR just means it was an ARmalite design
AR-5 was 22 Hornet and the AR-7 was a 22LR for example. Some AR's are even 12ga shotguns and 9mm handguns (later design's).
Now the AR-1 was a 7.62x51 bolt action, so you are right just not in the way you intended.

I know, just didn't feel those specifics were important for the purpose of this thread. Just like the fact that the original AR-10 had the charging handle inside the carry handle, no forward assist, bakelite furniture, a true pencil barrel, etc.; None of that seems important here, just the fact that what we know as an AR platform today was not originally designed around the 5.56mm cartridge.

 

[Dreamcast270mhz]

The biggest issues I have:

Excess gas, unlike on hakim and MAS 49, goes into the chamber.

Non-adjustable gas system means the gun cannot cycle reliably under heavily fouled conditions

Magazines are fragile, feed lips bend easily and cause most of the stoppages

Non reciprocating handle requires the forward assist under fouled conditions

the 5.56 round is illegal for deer, so why are our troops using it?


Revisions that would help: Adjustable gas system. reciprocating, both sided handle. Upgrade to 6.8 SPC? Improved magazines (already beginning to be fielded). A set of bleed vents to allow spent gas to be directed away from chamber.


I have changed my stance as I begin to see that Direct Impingement isn't the issue, the fact is it was never meant to be used in heavily fouled conditions with lots of sand, mud and dirt

 

[clutch]

I don't want to suck up 1200 ft/lb of energy even on a day I feel strong. The current AR is popular because you can carry more ammo and any grunt will tell you that ammo is life.

I shoot a 20" barrel AR which seems about right. I don't get this M4 craze. The adjustable buttstock has purpose but the short barrel seems less than useful.

For home defense, I'm going to use a major caliber handgun where weapon retention is easier than carrying a rifle.

Clutch

 

[Strange Bob]

The biggest issues I have:

Excess gas, unlike on hakim and MAS 49, goes into the chamber.

Non-adjustable gas system means the gun cannot cycle reliably under heavily fouled conditions

Magazines are fragile, feed lips bend easily and cause most of the stoppages

Non reciprocating handle requires the forward assist under fouled conditions

the 5.56 round is illegal for deer, so why are our troops using it?


Revisions that would help: Adjustable gas system. reciprocating, both sided handle. Upgrade to 6.8 SPC? Improved magazines (already beginning to be fielded). A set of bleed vents to allow spent gas to be directed away from chamber.


I have changed my stance as I begin to see that Direct Impingement isn't the issue, the fact is it was never meant to be used in heavily fouled conditions with lots of sand, mud and dirt

Ain't illegal for deer here ... just sayin.


Everything else in your post was pretty good though.

 

[Zerodefect]

-5.56 kills deer just fine.

-if your AR is fouled enough to require the forward assist then you just shot 400 times more ammo than any soldier actually has on hand for himself. I don't like reciprocating handles smacking into me or my cover in tight CQB situations. Or worse yet, the recip handle hanging up on something causing a malf.

-if your AR is fouled enough that a middie or rifle gas system deosn't cycle well, then once again, you just shot a ton of ammo. Real troops clean thier weapons.

I've never seen a "good" AR do any of this unless it was choking on Wolf or steel cased ammo. If this really concerns you, Carbine gas systems on 16" rifles have a bit more grunt and can handle bad ammo, and dirtier conditions.

-shorter barrels are better for CQB. If your AR's tasks weigh heavy on CQB and less on long range then 14.5" barrels make a ton of sense.

- I have no idea why the magwell never evolved. But at least Magpuls Pmags have a nice constant curve now.

-theres nothing wrong with optimizing your AR to a specific purpose. For many civvys and police a long 20" rifle is rediculous and slow.

 

[Precision]

thanks for the posts, guys. as always, my eyes have been opened. Personally, if I ever buy an AR-15, I want it to be an Adcor Defense B.E.A.R.

http://www.adcorindustries.com/defense/weapons.asp

Just to be on the safe side.

 

[kwelz]

Can we put this FUD about ARs not being reliable when dirty to rest.

If you need the Forward assist you should not be using the Forward assist. If it is to dirty to function then you are trying to use it while underground.

 

[Sam Cade]

Oh no, another Wonder AR. What happened to you thinking that that NGA X7 was the awesome-sauce?

 

[Dreamcast270mhz]

@kwelz

Even so, that article mostly addresses the carbon build up alone. It acknowledges that the system is bad in that the carbon is deposited in the action. Also, take into account that the armed forces have to contend with sand, dust and dirt. This article mentions some accounts of soldiers who have had issues with sand getting into the rifle and jamming it. http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-usas-m4-carbine-controversy-03289/

Also, the infamous HMV wreck that nearly killed jessica lynch, she admitted her M16 had jammed up after the HMV wrecked. She and her crew were captured and you still defend the rifle? Certainly an area to bleed the gas would help lessen the stress from other fouling?

Also, a reciprocating handle may not be perfect but it allows for much easier cycling and you can easily tell when the bolt is not forward.

 

[kwelz]

How much experience do you have with the M4/AR15 platform? I shoot a lot in training enviroments. Many of the people I shoot with are military or retired Military. None of them have the complaints I see from so many armchair generals on the internet.

Sand will cause a malfunction in any weapon. I have seen AKs fail to function as well. And supposedly they are indestructible.

And as for the Jessica Lynch thing. You are going to use an example of a weapon that supposedly malfunctioned after an IED explosion as proof? Really?

 

[Dreamcast270mhz]

Before this decays into a AK/AR thread, here is my views:

An AK can and will jam, but not nearly as often. The full power gas system, economical design and high clearance between parts affords much grit, but everything has a wall where it will cease to function. More armymen use AKs then you think. My friend, an HMV escort, has friends who are deployed in Iraq who use AKS-74us during some engagements, and they say it certainly takes abuse better, they use it where their m16s are too unwieldy, although that is more due to the lack of M4 availability I presume.

All I have done are things that can turn something like the L85A1 into a L85A2, not perfect but somewhat better and certainly less expensive than a costly replacement like the G36C or SCAR

 

[kwelz]

That is fine if that is your view. But it doesn't match with reality.

 

[WNTFW]

I think Stoner was a genius. His biggest flaw was he was a little bit ahead of his time.

 

[NELSONs02]

:banghead:

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Excess gas, unlike on hakim and MAS 49, goes into the chamber.

OK, this makes no sense. The chamber is forward of the bolt. All of the "excess gas" you are worried about started in the chamber to begin with, so excess gas ending up there isn't really an issue. Am I misunderstanding you?

Second, excess gas is vented out the ejection port via the two holes on the side of the bolt carrier once the gas rings slide past those holes.

Non-adjustable gas system means the gun cannot cycle reliably under heavily fouled conditions

As noted, AR15-style direct impingement will continue to feed gas until the bolt unlocks, the bolt carrier begins moving to the rear and the excess gas vents out the two holes in the side. In a sense, the AR is an adjustable gas system that is always on "full power." However, you can easily add either adjustable gas tubes or adjustable gas blocks if you think it is an issue,

Non reciprocating handle requires the forward assist under fouled conditions

Putting aside whether the forward assist is all that useful, the non-reciprocating charging handle also means I don't have to worry about a non-traditional position (rollover prone or SBU prone) or a barricade causing a stoppage by blocking the charging handle. I can also grab anywhere on the handguard that suits me without worrying about getting my fingers clipped by the reciprocating charging handle.

the 5.56 round is illegal for deer, so why are our troops using it?

Actually it is legal for deer here - and our troops use it for a variety of reasons, light recoil, more ammo for weight, good power at the ranges where combat is most often encountered.

Also, the infamous HMV wreck that nearly killed jessica lynch, she admitted her M16 had jammed up after the HMV wrecked. She and her crew were captured and you still defend the rifle?

If we are going to stop using every weapon that jammed in the fight where Jessica Lynch was captured, then we also need to ditch the M2 - since the 507th's M2 jammed during that same fight. It would almost lead you to think that maybe the weapon wasn't the problem in that fight, wouldn't it?

 

[Zundfolge]

An AK can and will jam, but not nearly as often.

In all my years I've NEVER seen an AR that was a honest to God "Jam-o-matic" but I've seen plenty of AKs that were basically bolt action rifles ... and this is in the cleanliness of a range under controlled conditions.

Just as the "unreliability" of the AR is overblown, the "uber-reliability" of the AK is too ... there are well built rifles and poorly built rifles (for example I'd trust an AK made by SIG or IMI any day of the week ... but Galils and 550s are more expensive than even high end ARs). There are also well maintained rifles and poorly maintained rifles (and there are damaged and undamaged rifles).

Based on the years of service of the AR pattern rifle, I think there's plenty of proof that the DI system works just fine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZAHAr-GmJg

 

[mc223]

I am surprised this thread has been so civil. Bravo THRers !!! .


Stoner did it good from the beginning. Perfection is yet to be achieved in any platform.

 

[mljdeckard]

There is a difference between how I shoot deer and how I shoot bad guys. Particularly, with game, I am much more concerned about making one shot count and minimizing damage. I am not worried about this with human targets. I like to be able to hit them repeatedly. And I will usually be using my rifle in a support role to a heavier gun. When I hunt, I am on my own. And note, the Soviets dropped the .30 cal cartridge for a similar round in the AK-74.

The .223 is not illegal for hunting here, I know a few guys who hunt mule deer with .223 or 22-250, even though I wouldn't do it.

 

[Good&Fruity]

Run it wet.

 

[TexasPatriot.308]

nothing wrong, larger caliber like the .308 cures that...problem solved.

 

[NELSONs02]

I am surprised this thread has been so civil. Bravo THRers !!! .


Stoner did it good from the beginning. Perfection is yet to be achieved in any platform.

You know darn well what it's turned into though.

Anyone taking part in this useless banter can rest assured, nothing said here will be anything that hasn't been hashed over hundreds of times before on this forum.

 

[Dreamcast270mhz]

My final say:

I disagree with the AR design, as shown. Others love it. Definitely a marmite effect, I agree to disagree.

If you think it is the perfect rifle, fine by me, just make sure you are prepared to clean it often in a survival situation, as said, an adjustable gas system and use of quality magazines will increase your survival chances. Me? I'll choose whatever I can put into my hands and fits the situation.

 

[kwelz]

Nobody is claiming the AR is a perfect weapon. But it is the best platform available to us right now. And it has been proven time and again that the AR does not require anymore cleaning than an AK.

You don't like the AR platform, that is fine. But at least have your facts strait.