The ultimate home defense gun for women

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lawboy, you're philosophically correct, but it's (sadly) irrelevant. I've always said that the US attitude is that ownership in and of itself conveys expertise. Ain't so, of course, but that's just the way people are.

It holds for cars as well as guns. A guy buys a Corvette or Viper and he's magically transformed into Rudy Road-Racer. Give him a six-gun and he's Wyatt Urp.

In the real world, the best weapon for self defense for those who only want something near that bedside table is either an inexpensive .38 revolver or a single-shot 20-gauge. The KISS Principle rules.

Art
 
lawboy,

I never said a person shouldn't learn to be proficient with their firearm.

I was primarily addressing the difference between learning to shoot a very simply operated gun such as a DA-only revolver versus learning to shoot a gun with a more complex manual of arms such as a single-action semi-auto designed to be carried cocked and locked.

For the purpose of RESULTS only, it's reasonable to consider anything over what is required to be proficient and safe with a DA-only revolver to be excessive.

I want to be safe and I want to keep my home safe.

Do I really need to know that I have to unload the magazine THEN empty the chamber when I can just learn to swing out the cylinder?

Do I really need to know the difference between cocking the hammer, engaging a slide stop, disengaging the slide stop, engaging a safety, disengaging a safety, making sure I take a proper hold to disable the grip safety, using a mag release, etc. when I can learn to be safe and effective with a gun that only has TWO controls (cylinder latch & trigger)?

Do I need to understand the intricacies of locked breech actions versus straight blowback actions? Is it critical that I know how to fieldstrip most common semi-automatic pistols?

You're implying that it's impossible for someone to be a good and safe driver if they don't know how to do their own oil changes, aren't interested in the theory of internal combustion engines, and can't operate a stick shift. That's just not true. A person can be a very good driver and very safe but never even touch a stick shift or a wrench or care a whit about the difference between electronic ignition versus mechanical spark advance.

We should be careful that in the process of helping someone to become PROFICIENT and SAFE, we don't try to force someone to become an afficionado.
 
I suspect the ladies have since made side bets as to whom digs the biggest hole for themselves. They have stopped commenting, some never did. I'm in enough trouble as is on this thread. Art's last post has me worried, I drive a truck and carry a 1911 style, afraid to hear my psych profile. :D

Hi ladies, I was being polite and considerate for the record. :) It's whatever you want...
 
Women seem to fall into two groups, those who don't mind the idea of personally using a gun and those who don't want to use a gun. At least one half, or more, of the women I know don't like the idea of owning or using a gun even if it is to save their life. These women won't even carry a good knife. They will, however, carry pepper spray.

I don't understand these women who will not carry a gun or knife to protect their lives. I've mentioned to them that some of these bad guys don't mind at all hurting or killing them. Why wouldn't they be so angry at the idea of some SOB wanting to hurt them, that they wouldn't worry about stopping the attack with a gun or knife? To that question they don't seem to have much of an answer. Or, a few of them say they know God will protect them. I sincerely hope they are right.

I'm all for gun manufacturers making weapons that will be effective and easy to use by women. I this includes making the gun look pretty, why not? As long as it will perform when needed.

Rich
 
Whether or not the single home owner has a vagina or penis is not a relevant issue. The reason there are "Ladies" guns is that the gun folks have created marketing crap to appeal to senses of style and stereotypically less amount of muscle mass present in women. Most of the "Ladies" guns are of the lightweight variety and while light to carry, offer more recoil than their full weight counterparts. I can't recall, but I think it was Smith or Hackathorn in American Handgunner who noted the stupidity of lightweight guns being marketed to ladies as the recoil was not pleasant and if anything, it kept them from practicing as the unpleasant recoil was not something they wanted to experience.

The isssue is not the presence of a vagina, but physical abilities and skills. Regardless of those abilities and skills, rifles offer significant force and may be more easily controlled for shooting by less experienced folks and folks with less muscle (male, female, old, or young).

It is rather naive to make gun suggestions based on sex without taking the more selevant factors into consideration. Sex is a non-issue in this case. While the old saying is that God created man and Colt made men equal, the updated version might be that God created people and Colt made them equal. There is no reason a 100 lb woman can't handle a .45 acp, 12 ga. shotgun, or deer rifle as well as a 200 lb. man. It may take a little more training and require a little more skill to overcome the difference in muscle and gross tonnage, but it can be done.
 
Uh, wow.
All respect to the ladies ...

I don't think you have to know how to change oil to drive a car competently.

The original post was about home defense with a gun, not carrying a gun, so cocked and locked issues are moot.

People who constant preach about a revolver being more reliable than an auto, less complex, less prone to jamming ... this is not true.

Revolver's have their own types of jams that must be dealt with such as cylinder binding on backed out or pierced primer, or bullet that has jumped crimp. crud binding the cylinder pin, blocking the cyinder hand or the hammer. I am not saying these things are every day occurences but they happen.

I also freely admit that some guns have simpler manuals of arms than others. My point is the difference is not very much, and can be learned and then mastered with simple practice on a regular basis. My other point is that even with a double action only revolver, a person who does not practice and is not familiar with the gun will not be effective or safe under stress. if their bluff of pointing the gun at someone with shakey hands does not work, they are at MUCH greater risk of failing to fight with the weapon effectively than someone who is competent. THIS APPLIES TO MEN AND WOMEN EQUALLY.

The original argument about selecting guns for women is valid -- each woman should select a weapon she likes and can use effectively; so should each man. There are PLENTY of gun choices out there that will fit any conceivable human being ... I mean, come on. There is no substitute for dedication and practice and will power. You could make a gun that one could pick up, point and aim and shoo just by thinking the thoughts to do it. If you didn't practice those thoughts, you wouldn't likely be succesful in doing it under stress. Folks, look, some people get lucky and get a telling hit the first time, having spent no time with weapons of any kind practicing. I have been in a gun fight and i am NOT an LEO. I can tell you right now, that is NOT what you want to bet your life on, blind stupid luck.
 
Black Snowman wrote:
We need to reach out to these woman and cultivate interest. To avoid issues of recoil, weight, ect. . . you don't want to start out on the weapons they'll defend themselves with. You want to start them out on weapons that are classicly good for training. .22 rifles and pistols of various descriptions are a great start.
Click to expand...

Actually, that excellent advice applies to men as well.

Except that most men think they don't need to start with the fundementals. What ability we weren't born with, we learned from watching Mel Gibson and Steven Seagal.



only1asterisk wrote
A pump action .357 like the Timberwolf carbine would be even better, but as far as I know there are now plans to bring this little gem back.
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I would love to see a pump-action (or even lever-action) in other common calibers, such as 9mm, .40 S&W, and especially .45 ACP. Even those who have trouble with a .45 handgun (man or woman) should find a .45 carbine easy to use.

Make it so it uses common pistol magazines.



frodo527 wrote:
If someone -- regardless of gender -- who intends to get a firearm for home defense, but doesn't plan to practice with it or get to know how it works, we have the makings of a serious problem here.
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Philisophically, I agree, but...

Unfortunately, it is getting harder and harder to find a place to shoot. For a variety of reasons I won't go into here, shooting is becoming a major inconvenience. For those of us who enjoy it, we put up with the obstacles, because it's our hobby.

Shooting is a lot of work if you don't like it.


Kaylee wrote:
If a chick can figure out how to work a steering wheel, gas petal, brake, gearshift, clutch, and all the little do-whazzits on the console while putting on makeup, adjusting the radio, and chatting on the cell phone no less I think a mag release, slide/bolt release, and manual safety aren't gonna be too much for her to figure out.
Click to expand...


People drive their cars every day. Driving "practice" is something most of us get several hours of per week as part of our normal lives.

Shooting is something we have to go out of our way to do.



JohnKSa wrote:
The issue is not ability.

Women who are interested in SHOOTING are few and far between.

Women who are interested in using a firearm for home defense are much more common.

Nobody is saying that women are less capable in any respect, only that their interest in firearms is often primarily RESULTS oriented.

A person who wants an effective means of home defense but isn't interested in shooting (as an end in itself) or in learning about guns past some minimum reasonable level should have options available to them.
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Well said.


lawboy wrote:
We'll take the typical double action semi-auto as case in point. Here are the possible conditions of that weapon:
empty, no clip, slide locked back.
empty, no clip, slide forward, safety on
empty, no clip, slide forward, safety off
empty, clip, slide locked back,
empty clip, slide forward, safety off,
empty, clip, slide forward, safety on
round in chamber, emply clip, slide forward, safety on
round in chamber, empty clip, slide forward, safety off
round in chamber, rounds(s) in clip, slide forward, safety on
round in chamber, round(s) in clip, slide forward, safety off
round in chamber, no clip, slide forward, safety on
round in chamber, no clip, slide forward, safety off

this drill varies somewhat depending on semi-auto type, but you get the point. Now, compare this to all the traffic rules you have to know to drive, all the mechanical things you have to do simultaneously to drive, all the distance, speed, time relationship problems you have to solve second to second while in a car. this business about guns being complex is absolute foolduggery -- someone has not thought this through.
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As I pointed out above, most people spend several hours a week driving as part of their normal routine. It's easy to accumulate what we shooters call "muscle memory."

This is not the case with shooting, which we have to go out of our way to do.

For a new driver, "all the mechanical things you have to do simultaneously to drive" is complicated, and takes months to learn, and years to do instinctively.

While I spend over an hour a day in my vehicle, I'm lucky to average an hour per month at the shooting range. And on the way to and from the range, I gain another two hours' experience behind the wheel. I don't think I'm the only one.

If we could all spend as much time shooting as we do driving, this discussion would be moot, since we'd all be as proficient with our guns as we are with our cars.
 
And while we're on the guns/cars analogies, here's one I came up with a couple of years ago when asked about buying a revolver vs. a semi-auto. It's not perfect, and I'd appreciate any feedback to make it better:

Shooting a revolver is like driving a car with an automatic transmission. Once you learn the basic technique, it's simple and easy to remember. As with any skill, frequent practice makes better.

Shooting a semi-automatic handgun is like driving a car with a manual transmission. It's not that hard, but there is a larger initial learning curve, and takes more practice. If you do it frequently, it becomes second-nature. If you haven't done it in a while, you may have to stop and think about what you're doing. And you'll probably make a minor mistake or two.
 
random musings:

CZ now has a bolt action rifle with 16" barrel, in 7.62x39 - if the female in question can't for some reason manage a gun that is bigger, more complicated, or whatever, that might be a good bet.

I HAVE noted that some ladies who don't have a lot of hand strength may have trouble racking the slide on an autoloader, or inserting rounds into the tube of a lever gun, or into a magazine. A single action revolver may merit consideration, here.

The best bet is still to let her start with a .22, then move up as she's comfortable. This has worked okay for the 4 or so ladies I have taught to shoot.

One female friend is a petite blonde who is uninterested in anything but her Ruger .22/45. I have little doubt she would put 10 .22 caliber holes into anyone accosting her.

Women can indeed handle .357's, .45's, .44's, and the like, with practice, but I'll bet very few successfully start off with one of them. Buy a .22, and go from there.
 
CZ now has a bolt action rifle with 16" barrel, in 7.62x39 - if the female in question can't for some reason manage a gun that is bigger, more complicated, or whatever, that might be a good bet.
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I think a pump-action carbine would be more suited for home defense than a bolt action, since it's easier to keep on target while loading the next round.


Women can indeed handle .357's, .45's, .44's, and the like, with practice, but I'll bet very few successfully start off with one of them. Buy a .22, and go from there.
Click to expand...

The same is true with men.

I can't tell you how many guys I see start off with a 9mm, .45, .357, etc. -- often at 25 yards, because that's the max at most ranges -- and can't figure out why they're shooting like crap. After all, our favorite movie action heroes had no problem making precise shots at long ranges while running or driving.

Or worse, they delude themselves into thinking that they are doing really great.
 
One simple problem with this thread: it uses the word "women" where the phrase "novice shooter" should be used.

This is the problem with just about every "woman's gun" thread.

Plenty of well-trained women shooters out there (and on this forum!).

Plenty of unskilled male shooters....heck, that describes most of the "shooters" I see on the range.

Ever notice how women on this board never EVER start these " woman's gun" threads? There's a reason for that.....

Heck, in my very limited experience, novice females tend to be much better shooters than novice males, as well as less recoil sensitive (my stepdaughter's reaction to shooting a .45 Kimber after a .22 Buckmark & a 9mm Taurus on her first trip to the range ever: "I like this one best....it feels like a REAL GUN!").

Back to the original question: the revolver rifle sounds cool, but I'll bet the problem of sideblast would require ultra-tight tolerances, which would then put the weapon out of the price range that novices would wish to spend. There may be a way to put some sort of shroud around the whole gap, but if so, why wasn't this done with revolving longarms made in the 19th century? I think a light, short, break-open double-barrel carbine in 9mm or .38/.357 would be ideal for a user with little to no training. With even minimal training, though, I don't think a semi-auto carbine should present much of a problem to most individuals. And certainly not a pump action, I would like to see more pumps out there.

(So when do we see the thread: "Male shooters: isn't it cute then they try to do something dumb like figure out what's best for us women" in General Discussion? :) )
 
Chris, don't these threads usually begin because a guy has concern for the safety of a wife or girlfriend?

Most of the discussion about "women's guns" centers around the issue of size and strength of their hands, and what I'd call a "cultural thing" about actually shooting somebody. And, of course, the issue of whether some particular woman would actually practice enought to develop and maintain skill.

It's tied to the "Men are hunters; women are nurturers." concept.

:), Art
 
My last girlfriend bought a youth model 870 in 20 gauge from Wal Mart for $240.

For the dollar with was the best home defense gun fro her. I found that training her on clay pigeons boosted her confidence kept her interest a lot longer than punching paper. On that note, I feel the best defense gun for a woman will be the one she's comfortable with and handle a lot.
 
Tamara So, uh, what'd be a good man's gun? I have this friend I want to introduce to shooting...
Click to expand...

Well, my Dad started me out on a S&W AirWeight shooting 22 shorts and Kamicosmos' first handgun of his own was a Redhawk in .44 Mag so I guess men are just a varied as women. With your collection, I'm sure you'll find something they'll like ;)

PS: Yes, I know it's a serious answer to what was ment to be a thought provoking question that was mostly rhetorical.
I'm really amazed you waited this long to chime in. I can see why they made you a Mod. Incredible restraint and judgement. Must be all that gun handling ;)
 
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