There Is No "United States Government"

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Did you know that the Constitution never established the Government of the United States? No, Really! I kid you not! Take a gander at the Constitution in the three articles that establish the three governing branches of our Union, and you'll not find one reference to anything properly named "The Government of the United States". The Constitution created the Congress of the United States, the President of the United States, and the Supreme Court - three separate governing bodies with checks and balances in stead of one overarching Government of the United States. Examples of countries with one governing body would be the one party communist system in China and the old Soviet Union, monarchies, theocracies, oligarchies, and dictatorships. What we have as an overarching governance in this country is the Constitution for the United States. Yup! A piece of paper!

Now I can hear you asking what this has to do with our Right to Keep and Bear Arms and carrying concealed weapons. I'll get to that. Some of you might have already guessed. But first, I'd like to get down to the facts of the case.

When you look up the definition of "government", you find the following:

government n the exercise of authority over a state, organization, etc; a system of ruling, political administration, etc; those who direct the affairs of state, etc.

The first mention of "government" in the Constitution comes in Article I, Section 8, where Congress is delegated its powers, and there in Clause (14), Congress is granted power to "...make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;". The next use of the word "government" is in that same article and section at Clause (17), where Congress is granted "...power to exercise exclusive legislation...over such district...as may,..., become the seat of the government of the United States, ... ". The next mention is in that same article and section at Clause (18), the "necessary and proper" clause. In all three cases, the word "government " describes the act of governing - the act of governing the military, the act of governing the district where the act of governing is to take place, and to "...make all laws necessary and proper..." to carry out the powers vested by the Constitution to govern the United States - "... in the government of...".

How can we be sure what I say is true? In every instance where "government" is mentioned in the Constitution, it is with a lower case "g". The word "government" is never capitalized. The word "government" is never used to describe a proper noun. The use of the word "government " is almost always used as the act of governing. The lone exception is in the First Amendment, where it implicates "those who direct the affairs of state".

What we have is a union. Its name is "The United States of America". It is a union of sovereign states, joined by the Constitution as indicated in Article VII of the Constitution, to wit:

"The ratification of the conventions of nine states, shall be sufficient for the establishment of this Constitution between the states so ratifying the same. ... "

The Constitution is, therefore, an agreement between the people of the several states, binding the several states into the Union. It forms the "more perfect" *Union that the Preamble to the Constitution set as a goal; to establish justice throughout the Union; to insure domestic tranquility for those in those states that have signed on to join the Union; to provide for the common defense of all in those states that join, promote the general welfare, and - here it comes - and secure the blessings of liberty to **ourselves and our ***posterity,... Why is that important enough to be italicized? Because it was We the People who came from those states that signed their states on to the Constitution as representatives of the people from those states! None of this was done "for the states". It was done for the people, ratified - not by the legislatures or what ever comprised the government of each state - but by conventions held in the several states. People! Otherwise known as We the People.

*more perfect than it was under the "Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union" (That's the full name of what everyone calls the "Articles of Confederation". It was a union then and it is a union now!)

**we individuals

***our offspring(kids) - states do not have kids.

OK. We've just established that this government is of, by, and for us people. "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union,..." So how could the Second Amendment be construed to do anything other than protect our Right to Keep and Bear Arms as individuals, from the several state governments, and from the Union itself? It is a right of the people. It is recognized as such right there in the Second Amendment, and that amendment is as much a part of the Constitution as any of its articles. And, quite frankly, it is for our own security that the Second Amendment was written and ratified!

The Second Amendment even says "why": "..., being necessary to the security of a free state, ...". Whether you believe the word "state" means the political subdivision in which we live, or the condition of being in a state of freedom, doesn't really matter. The end result is the same. For us to remain free and secure, in our neighborhood or across the Union, we must be well armed, well trained, and rearing to go at a moment's notice. We can't do that while our rights are in an infringed state.

Our overarching all encompassing government in this land is the Constitution. It is the Supreme Law of the Land. It even says it is the Supreme Law of the Land and was accepted as such by the people in the conventions of the first nine states that ratified the Constitution, and every state that has since joined the Union. The Constitution prohibits ALL levels of government from infringing upon the Right to Keep and Bear Arms in its Second Amendment. It is a dictate from on high(the Constitution) to all branches of the Union on down the line to the most menial of home owner's associations! The Second Amendment to the Constitution does not single out any branch of the Union, or any other level of government, as is the practice elsewhere in the Constitution when it IS necessary to specify a branch or level of government. It is all encompassing. All the government in this Union is conducted at levels beneath - subordinate and subservientt to - the Constitution. Therefore, there is no "federal government" or other level of government that the Second Amendment would solely apply to! When someone tells you different, fire this back at them!

From this time on, as it was the practice not all that long ago, when you think of or discuss anything of a political nature in this great land, use "The United States" or the "Union" and stop using the term "The United States Government". Single out the "Congress", the "President", or the "Supreme Court" when it is appropriate, but when you need to mention the highest level of government in this land, it is the Constitution. Start it and see! Soon, everyone will correctly identify who and what we are and not what the left and the anti-gun-rights crowd wishes we were. That's the most solid approach we can make to reclaim the language of the Constitution and place all the infringements and abridgments under the scrutiny of the Constitution once again. And remember: It's all about we as individuals, not us as a group.

Here is the short version now that you know the background. "We" is the plural of "I". "People" is the persons of a certain place, group, or class. "Person" is an individual. So, "We the People" is a quick way to say "I, John A. Doe, an individual person living in the United States", and the next person, "I, John B. Doe, an individual person living in the United States", and the next person, "I, John C. Doe, an individual person living in the United States", and so on. So when it says "...the right of the people...", it is referring to the right of John A. Doe, an individual person living in the United States, and the next person, John B. Doe, an individual person living in the United States, and the next person, John C. Doe, an individual person living in the United States, and so on. It's an individual right, it is an inalienable right, and it is protected as an inalienable right from infringement by the overarching governing document(the Constitution), applicable to all branches and levels of government in the Union.

Sooner or later, someone in Congress or at the Supreme Court will get wind of this and do something about all the unconstitutional law. When it happens, we will all be safer from tyranny and crime. Then all discussion of concealed carry will be about which holster, how do you handle this situation, and what each individual thinks is the best caliber. Spread the word and vote like it, too.

Woody

The Constitution is the biggest compromise - the best compromise - ever written. It is where distribution of power and security of the common good meets with the protection of rights, freedom, and personal sovereignty. B.E.Wood
 
States Rights

Excellent post, well written.

As a Southerner, I can well appreciate the issues of "State Rights" and the fact that the constitution recognized the fact that states could leave the "United" States if things got so out of hand they could no longer tolerate the 'govenment' afforded by congress. Pity the folks in Washington have gotten the individual states so dependent on federal funding that no one could think of trying it again. (Don't for one minute believe the War between the States was waged to free slaves... it wasn't.)

I would dearly love to 'take back' the meaning of the Constitution, but I think changing the minds of the present, brain washed, TV sound bite zombies would be futile. If we are to suceed, we need to focus primarily on the next generation, and getting them free from the brainwashing taking place in the public school systems.

Doesn't hurt to try, mind you... I try every day.

Good thread... let's see where it goes.
 
That was the most convoluted argument for the Standard Model of the 2nd Amendment I have ever heard. You need to simplify your argument and pick a single logical line of attack. Your thesis seems to wander all over the place and generally makes my brain hurt.

I suggest you go to guncite and read some of the law review papers there. Especially the militia article that deals with the early cases that resolved who controlled the militias (http://www.guncite.com/journals/heath.html). IMO, this is the most devastating attack on the States Rights/Collective Rights interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. It completely blindsides it by showing that their entire line of reasoning was completely discarded in the time of the founding fathers.
 
If you are arguing for the "Compact Theory" of the federal government, that hasnt been successfully argued since the 1860s. Yes, the founding fathers left the true nature of the union somewhat ambiguious, but we settled that ambiguity once and for all in the Civil War/War Between the States. The federal government does have some authority under the constitution and States have no practical authority to secede. One can disagree, but it does no good the way things are right now.

I think the federal government at least needs to be shoved back into the bounds of the constitution itself (only performing enumerated functions and exercising enumerated powers), but the people have to actually demand such a thing first. Good luck as long as the 17th amendment stands.
 
Nice theory, but runs head-on into current practice - which is not about to change. Nor is the SCOTUS likely to enforce adherence to such a position.
 
EDIT--I think you're talking about FEDERALISM. There is a federal government, but it's not the same as the unified national goverments of other nations. Is that what you're getting at? See discussion below.
 
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The three-branch national government has overstepped its powers and needs to be reined in, but it does exist constitutionally regardless of the labels applied to it by the founders.

You're playing semantic games. A rose by any other name can still prick you with its thorns.
 
when you need to mention the highest level of government in this land, it is the Constitution.

But that would mean in real terms that the Supreme Court is the highest level of government...exactly what millions are bitching about. Something unintended happened along the way.

If the Supreme Court is supposed to "fix" this, it ain't gonna happen. When was the last time power and influence was relinquished voluntarily or a precedent establishing it was overturned?
 
It is a great thread, not only well written, but entirely correct. The ones arguing against your "therory" which is in fact, simply historically correct reporting have the same protests. The protests boil down to "Yes, but later, a bunch of lawyers got together, and "interpreted" it away.

It still does not alter the fact that it was established in the original manner for a reason.

Just saying "You will never be able to cure the intellectual damage done to people over the years by "government requried schools" does not alter the fact that your "theory" is spot on. In fact, the arguments that we have "gotten too far away from the intent, and can never go back" is exactly how we wound up with a President (and a Congress that will allow it) simply signs treaties with other governments, and forgets to tell the members of Congress, since he feels he has "Executive Powers" that do not exist, other than by force of arms.

Keep the faith. Keep reading the Articles and the Bill of Rights, with the knowledge that they follow one another in an exacting order, for a specific reason.

That way, when someone argues that one branch of government is supreme over another (as shown in the reference to the Supreme Court posted right above this post) you can possibly explain to them that the intent of the Constitution was guarantee that the RIGHTS OF THE PEOPLE are supreme, and ultimate, OVER the POWER of ALL governmental branches, even though usurption of the Constitution has brought about the taking away of "jury nullification" over the courts.
 
RealGun
But that would mean in real terms that the Supreme Court is the highest level of government...exactly what millions are bitching about. Something unintended happened along the way.
This is not correct, since the Congress is the real seat of power among the three branches. The only reason it appears to be the Supreme Court is that with the State governments effectively out of the way, we have a sold out and gelded U.S. Congress.

------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
 
Specious drivel

What are the three expressly delineated entities - Legislative, Executive and Judicial - but COMPONENTS of the clearly intended whole, a national government? For those who claim otherwise, explain the Constitution's references to the "UNITED States" and the "State of the UNION.":scrutiny:

The U.S. Constitution was drafted and ratified to REPLACE the existing and impotent form of government the country started with; a confederacy.

Those praising the OP while getting teary-eyed over "states' rights" might pause long enough to note that a confederacy is a documented failure - on TWO seperate occasions. :uhoh:
 
Ira Aten: The protests boil down to "Yes, but later, a bunch of lawyers got together, and "interpreted" it away.
No, we are saying that the Constitution -- in 1789, by will of the Founders -- established a three-branch national government.
  • They did use the words "Government of the United States" -- Article I, Section 8,
    • "To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;
    • To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
  • The fact that they tried to weaken the national government by breaking it into three-branches rather than establishing a monolith doesn't change the fact that they did established a national government.

We all agree that the national government has overstepped its powers.

We all agree that the national government has morphed into something the Founders never intended.

But it's factually wrong to say that the Founders never intended for there to be any sort of national government whatsoever. Right in the Constitution:
  • They specifically called it "The Government of the United States."
  • They established means for electing/appointing its members/officials.
  • They specified what it could and could not do (long since ignored :( )
  • They generally described how its three branches would interact.
  • They passed a Bill of Rights to protect against it.
  • They established the Federal District to house it.
 
You also need to deal with the fact that the Constitution was specifically designed to replace the Articles of Confederation, and thus was a repudiation of the weak national gov't your theory would call for. You mention the Articles, but I don't think you understand exactly what their elimination and replacement really meant.

When it happens, we will all be safer from tyranny and crime.

So, the "United States Government" is the source of all crime? Pull back on the hyperbole and rhetoric.
 
Tory said:
What are the three expressly delineated entities - Legislative, Executive and Judicial - but COMPONENTS of the clearly intended whole, a national government?(Emphasis, mine)
I disagree.

A National Government was exactly what the Founders didn't want. They wanted and wrote of establishing a Federal Government. A government comprised as a political entity formed by the union of the States (from whence we get the "compact" theory). A Federal Republic. A government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to the proposed Constitution, the Supreme Law.

A government of dual or shared sovereignty, between the Federal Government and that of the individual States.

In other words, a central government of limited but express powers delegated by the individual States. But not a national government.

Therefore, the entire premise of the thread starter is flawed from the very beginning.
 
A National Government was exactly what the Founders didn't want. They wanted and wrote of establishing a Federal Government. A government comprised as a political entity formed by the union of the States (from whence we get the "compact" theory).

Actually, that's exactly backwards (semantically speaking). What they wanted was a federal system, consisting of a national government unifying the various states, each of which had their own state government.

Federal government has become a term of art for the national government, but it began as an incorrect derivation from the term federalism.
 
Actually, that's exactly backwards (semantically speaking). What they wanted was a federal system, consisting of a national government unifying the various states, each of which had their own state government.

Federal government has become a term of art for the national government, but it began as an incorrect derivation from the term federalism.

Agreed. To the Founders, "federal government" would have referred to the whole system, from the Constitution down to the state governments.
 
I think that's where the confusion is. The real concern here should be over the destruction of the federalist system, especially since FDR. The monumental growth of the federal government in both scope and depth has slowly been transforming it into a national government with a national parliament. I agree this is cause for grave concern and if unchecked it will lead to nothing less than the destruction of the union.
 
Illogical

A National Government was exactly what the Founders didn't want. They wanted and wrote of establishing a Federal Government. A government comprised as a political entity formed by the union of the States (from whence we get the "compact" theory). A Federal Republic.

Let's see. The country ALREADY had a national government; it was looking for ways to make that government more effective; to accomplish that end, representatives drafted and enacted a document detailing what it expressly described as "the Government of the United States."

And we are now told not only that said government does not exist, but that it was never INTENDED to exist. A cretinous denial of fact, historical and present. The author of that absurdity apparently does not even know the definition of "federal." Here it is:

FEDERAL Of or relating to a system of related governments with a vertical division of governments into NATIONAL and regional components having different responsibilities, esp. of or relating to the NATIONAL GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

Black's Law Dictionary (8th Ed. @ p. 642] Bold added.

Here's another very simple reality check:

If ALL the states then existing form a united system of government, encompassing all those states, the citizens of each of those states, and further providing for the incorporation of new states and citizens INTO that united system of government, how can the result NOT be a "national government?" :scrutiny:

I presume the next breathless revelation will be that the moon landings were faked and/or Ollie North warned Al Gore about bin Laden.....:banghead:
 
Chuchillian:

They established a "system of government" designed specifically to assure that POWER was ultimately determined by the RIGHTS of the People.

However, The People have allowed their RIGHTS to be stripped away, and now, ultimate POWER is owned by a failry new "THE GOVERNMENT" which evolved into the unaccountable, unharnessed, "Great and Powerful Oz-like" group of people over which we have no control or influence whatsoever.

Far cry from holding the Ultimate power through God Given Rights.

Yes, the governmental system established by the Founders was the system of a "Federal Government" but only so long as laws enacted were "pursuant to" the Constitution. But when our society gave that up, it ceased being "the federal governmental system" which founded the nation, and morphed into "THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT" we see today.

If you think the current "Government" is the one referred to in the founding documents, walk into the Internal Revenue Service Center, and see how much respect you are accorded, and how much your opinion matters to even the damned janitors.

You are not the power, they are. You have no rights whatsoever unless THEY (meaning THE GOVERNMENT) says you do.

So how can it be, when the rights enumerated under the Constitution were (according to that sytem of government) granted by God, and the current "rights" (or more truthfully, the almost complete lack thereof when dealing with almost any FEDERAL GOVERNMENT agency) are determined from "Regulatory Agency Rules?"

Two entirely different "government" systems. One, a Representative Republican form of Democracy, and the other has become one in which a President of the United States can pretty much do what he wants, and totally disregard the Constitution, since he considers that document to be (according to reports I have seen in the media) "just a damned piece of paper."

Now, I may not know for a fact that he said that, because you cannot trust the media as far as you can throw them. However, I do see that he conducts his duties as if he believes it.
 
how can the result NOT be a "national government?"

Because as was pointed out it's a FEDERALIST form of government. Its creation did not eliminate the sovereign status of the several states or of the native tribes. A true national government would be something like the English Parliamentary system or French government, which is the sole representative of the sovereign entity. Westerechestersex-on-Hampton or whatnot may have existed since Roman times, but it ain't a sovereign entity in the same way Alaska or Oregon is. It's merely an administrative district. The sovereign entity is England, and that government is not restrained by notions of federalism. It has the same scope of authority that the Kings of old had, and can issue laws on everything from school textbooks to local road construction.

The US federal goverment's powers are strictly limited both by the bill of rights and the enumerated powers. They're further limited by the checks and balances. The founders did not intend to create a national government able to express its will across the nation at will. Indeed the founders didn't even give the federal state a criminal code or police force.

Now we've seen these principles erode to such an extent that even alleged "conservatives" demand more and more federal intervention in every issue from flag burning to what gets taught at schools. If we keep going down this road the system will collapse or be reduced to meaningless formality. We see the latter happening all the time. For example the courts since FDR have been reducing the enumerated powers to mere formality, and Congress has jumped at the chance to pass sweeping new laws to control evey aspect of personal behavior. The courts' allowance of more and more sweeping regulatory provisions has in turn allowed the Executive to become it's own independent government, able to both pass laws and enforce them by switching hats and saying the proper magic words.

The only meaningful check remaining is the fact that the federal state has grown so enormous and complex it can't get all its parts moving in the same direction. But as the office of the President assumes more and more power there may come a time when he will be able to get the leviathan moving as a coordinated whole. And that will be the end of the great experiment.
 
Ira Aten: If you think the current "Government" is the one referred to in the founding documents...
I understand that it's not what the Founders intended. Perhaps you missed it when, in Post #14, I wrote: "We all agree that the national government has morphed into something the Founders never intended." I even used the same word as you to describe the decline: morphed.

However, woodcdi's initial post is wrong on (at least) two counts:
  • The Founders did intend for there to be a national government -- a much smaller and less powerful one than we have now -- but a national government all the same.
  • The Constitution (despite the woodcdi's erroneous claim to the contrary) does refer to this national government as "the Government of the United States."
You expended a lot of verbiage describing to me why the national government is out of control. I don't disagree with you. Pointing out woodcdi's errors is not a defense of the current state of affairs.
 
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