Thinking about a Mosin...

[24kshooter]

For high volume shooting to keep your skills up it time to buy a nice 10-22 or CZ and a good scope. The 54R's are fun to shoot for 20 rounds or less at a time and after that they will not help you unless you want to practice flinching. The Finn 29's have the best stock configuration but they will still get your attention. If you want more sizzle get a 17 HMR - a 17 will put a smile on your face for $.20 per shot.

 

[crazed_ss]

My M38 doesnt seem to be very accurate either.. I've only shot Greek Olympic ammo out of it which I hear isnt the best stuff.

 

[Picknlittle]

My last trip to the range with my SKS and Chinese T53 MN was quite telluing,,..on me.

My Mosin was hitting hard left, the SKS was hitting hard right. I've got the windage on both really close now. With me shooting (and I'm having some issues with my eyes ghosting the rear sight), I'm getting 2' groups with the mosin, and three " groups with the SKS at 50 yds. At 100 yds I'm getting a bit worse at 4-6" with both, but I know it's an eye thing.

I let another shooter shoot them both Sunday at 50 yds. He had a five shot group with one ragged 1/2" hole and one hole off 3/4" to the left with the Mosin. That group was 1" right , 2" high. He shot about a 1 1/2" group with the SKS, but it's hitting about 6" high. I need the tool to raise the elevation on the front sight.

Point is these guns shoot great, especially the T53. I experimenting with a sighting aperture on the right lense of my shooting glasses. Some test with apertures in cardboard have proven helpful. Gotta fix the eyes!

 

[CajunBass]

I've got a couple of the T-53's. I haven't shot them yet, but they sure look like they'd kick like a mule. That steel buttplate looks pretty hard.

What's that limbsaver a couple people mentioned?

edited to add: Never mind. I found them.

 

[Picknlittle]

I didn't get the Limbsaver because I couldn't find it in teh Midsouth Catelog. I did get this one though and my T53 is a *****cat now.

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0001004418

 

[Cosmoline]

For finns, check Wholesale Guns and Ammo (WGA) and Empire Arms. WGA has a lot of M-39's and Empire has M-91's. You can also check the swap and sell on the collector's forums on gunboards.

The recoil of Mosins is NOT THAT BAD. I've fired off hundreds of rounds at a sitting without trouble. It's on par with .30'06. People just think they recoil a lot because they're not used to steel buttplates and they see a big flash and blast.

 

[ArmedBear]

All of the above considered, I'd be inclined to get a Howa package rifle in .223.

Ammo is noncorrosive, accurate, low-recoil and available cheap at Wal-Mart (7.62x54R is also at my Wal-Mart, though it's far more expensive).

Gun is accurate and fun, but not too expensive.

Depends what you want out of it. I have a few milsurps, myself. But I don't expect much out of them, accuracy-wise. I don't even shoot all of them, really. I just bought some of them because I figured that soon, they'll be gone. Too many older shooters tell me stories of $20 M1 Carbines. Then they show me their carbines. Mosins don't seem to be drying up, though. Guess the Russkies made tens of millions of them, maybe more.

 

[ArmedBear]

People just think they recoil a lot

Horsepuckey, at least WRT the M-38.

I shot my M-38 along with my .30-06 hunting rifle (walnut Weatherby stock with recoil pad, IMO the best stock ergo's for me, bar none, vs. the M-38 original stock, about the worst stock fit of anything I've ever shot, plus a steel buttplate).

Of course the round is about like a .30-06. It's the gun that makes the difference. I shoot a fair number of shotgun rounds through various guns, and one thing you learn from shotgunning is that stock shape and fit matter a LOT, both for practical accuracy and for perceived recoil. A lot of rifle shooters don't even know what stock fit means, but shotgunners can be obsessed with it.

I could shoot my .30-06 all day. Not the M-38. Recoil as experienced by the shooter is influenced by a lot of things other than the round!

The narrow, sharp-edged, plate steel buttplate, the relatively light weight and the utterly terrible ergonomics of the carbine added up to a hurting shoulder. I don't give a crap about the show a gun puts on -- I learned to shoot a rifle using a .50 caliber muzzleloader with a brass crescent buttplate. I judge by how my shoulder feels after 10 rounds, not by the muzzle blast, flash, smoke, etc.

Now, put a Limbsaver on the thing, and it does improve a lot, both because of the padding and the longer LOP.

But if someone wants to do volume shooting, I'd go with the full-length rifle, not the carbine.

Or put on an aftermarket stock, though that kinda defeats the purpose of shooting a classic.

 

[Cosmoline]

You probably weren't holding it right. I've shot an 1895G with B Bore loads. That's a lot of recoil. I've shot the same loads out of a No. 1. That's even more recoil. I've fired high octane Rottweil loads out of a little dinky Ithaca pump action. It was memorable. The Mosin isn't that bad. It's mid-range. It does have some recoil, yes. But as long as you get into the zen of the rifle it's not going to hurt you. I've put tens of thousands of rounds out of every major Mosin type, and I'm by no means resistant to recoil.

 

[nobody_special]

Thanks Cosmoline! Niiiiiice.

Is there any concern with using a pre-1898 receiver? It'd avoid the FFL fee and a 150 mile round-trip drive... I don't have a C&R, and I"m not terribly interested in getting one.

24kshooter, I have a 10/22... it's fun but mostly gets used by my gf. I like the idea of shooting 7.62R since it's similar in power to the 7.62 NATO I use in my M1A.

ArmedBear, the Howa looks interesting but it's a more expensive proposition, even with a Finn M39, I'll come out ahead if I want any quantity of ammo. And mostly, the point here is to save money since 7.62/.308 is so expensive. Besides, if I were to get an intermediate cartridge, I'd really want a semi-auto... and then my gf would end up with it again.

 

[Bazooka Joe71]

The first round out of my m44 was the only one that was a bit shocking...I didn't know what to expect out of it because I had never been around one being fired before...Long story short, its up there was my most favorite guns to shoot...Its gets more range time than most of my other guns.

 

[ArmedBear]

You probably weren't holding it right. I've shot an 1895G with B Bore loads. That's a lot of recoil. I've shot the same loads out of a No. 1. That's even more recoil.

Both of those guns are infinitely superior on the ergonomics scale, at least to me.

The gun didn't blow me back or anything. I've shot heavier-recoiling guns, too. What it did was bash my shoulder, and I was holding it as right as the stock design would allow. I'm speaking specifically about an original M-38 carbine, not the 7.62x54R round, not the M-38 with a Limbsaver added.

It's as good a toy as any, but, bottome line, the M1A is far more pleasant to shoot. As long as one expects this, then one will end up better satisfied. Furthermore, I didn't say I will never shoot my M-38s again, just that they don't feel nearly as good as some different designs, including the M1A.

Now maybe the Mosin stock fits somebody. It must, or they wouldn't have designed it that way. But it doesn't fit me.

 

[Cosmoline]

Is there any concern with using a pre-1898 receiver?

Nope, esp. not with the Finns. You will often see little pips in the steel of the receiver on Finnish Mosins. That's the marks left by their smiths checking the strength of the steel. Those rifles were put together by the likes of Tikka and Sako, so quality isn't usually an issue. The only real problems I've had with Finns is some are fussy about poor quality ball (esp. the early M-27's, M-28's and others with tighter chambers and bores). And some have been shot enough to wear out the ejector/interruptor spring. But that's easy to replace. The bores are usually very good because the Finns switched to non-corrosive primers long before the Soviets did.

I've ordered two or three M-39's from WGA and never had any problems with them. They're good about posting photos of any flaws. Generally you'll pay more to get mint condition or rare issue M-39's, but that doesn't mean they'll be better shooters. Any recoil issues are negated with the M-39 because it has a nice Westernized semi pistol grip stock and weighs over nine pounds. They're great for shooting mass quantities of ammo. They don't heat up nearly as fast as the thinner barrel soviets, and almost seem to have been designed from the outset to be shot all day long at advancing red army men:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KuNe0YC4Ck

(the first battle in "Talvisota")

 

[Harry Paget Flashman]

The thing about Mosin Nagant's is to just go ahead and buy them 5 at a time and try for the quantity discount. I bought mine onesy-twosies until I got smarter and bought them by the 2's and 3's. I've got two 91/30's, five T53's, a 91/59, an M39 and an M38. Just today I picked up a spike bayonet for the 91/30. I also found some Argentine Mauser stripper clips in a parts bin for 25¢ apiece.

What I'm buying next is an M44 to convert to this if I can:

Everyone needs a stealth rifle.

(Image found at Class Arms. Inc.)

 

[flynlr]

The thing about Mosin Nagant's is to just go ahead and buy them 5 at a time and try for the quantity discount. I bought mine onesy-twosies until I got smarter and bought them by the 2's and 3's. I've got two 91/30's, five T53's, a 91/59, an M39 and an M38. Just today I picked up a spike bayonet for the 91/30. I also found some Argentine Mauser stripper clips in a parts bin for 25¢ apiece.

What I'm buying next is an M44 to convert to this if I can:

Everyone needs a stealth rifle.

(Image found at Class Arms. Inc.)

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=3475806#post3475806

http://tinyurl.com/3y8ant

thats a good looking rifle. bling bling.

 

[Old Time Hunter]

If you load 'em with 28-30 grains of H4895 behind a 150gr LRNGC, they shoot just fine. About 2100fps compared to Wolf 150's@2700, but felt recoil is almost half, mostly due to the slower burning powder. Paper does not know the difference!

 

[nobody_special]

Would I have to feel guilty for shooting corrosive ammo through an M39? (I am compulsive about cleaning...)

Edited to add: cleaning aside, I live in the desert, so the integrity of my steel is probably doubly safe. Salts require some humidity to cause corrosion.

 

[KaiserBen]

Would I have to feel guilty for shooting corrosive ammo through an M39? (I am compulsive about cleaning...)

I do it all the time with mine. Just make sure you clean it thoroughly afterwards. Granted, mine's no safe queen, it's been around the block a few times (and a few more for good measure); it has <10% bluing remaining, and the interrupter is worn out, but it still shoots excellently and has a wonderful trigger.

 

[nobody_special]

thats a good looking rifle. bling bling.

My reaction was more like...



Okay, one final question... what's the rationale in choosing heavy ball vs. light ammo?

Edited - make that two final questions. Many are advertised as "80% blue" or "10% blue" etc. -- presumably the finish has worn off. Does this have significant practical (corrosion?) implications, or is it purely cosmetic?

 

[Cosmoline]

Some rifles shoot better with heavy (180-200 grain) bullets, some better with the lighter weights in the 140 grain range. You need to shoot an array to find out what a particular rifle favors.

 

[Noxx]

Great sire for Mosin info http://www.russian-mosin-nagant.com/index.html

I own a 91/30 and an M44, they're great, cheap, fun rifles with actual historic value... did I mention cheap?

I prefer the russians, for historical reasons. Take your time buying em, they're all cheaper than dirt, but the quality varies wildly. Most of the stores that sell em don't seem to differentiate arsenals at all, my 91/30 is a 1940 Tula (woo, I win!) that I picked up for the same $80 as the fours Izhevsk's next to it.

Buy a headspace gauge, most of these rifles have seen severe service and / or poor maintenance.

Edit: include blurry peekture! (too much coffee)

 

[lathedog]

I have had good results with M91/30's. I have a Finnish "SA" marked gun that shoots way way better than I do.

They can be finicky with some of the steel case ammo out there, but seem to all like wolf brand with the heavier bullets.

I also have a few boxes of reloadable (boxer primed) brass that I load with Remington brand 180 gr .311 soft points (bulk pack from MidwayUSA and fairly cheap) on top of a moderate/light load of 4895. Very pleasant to shoot, and prints to a center hold at 100yds with the rear sight at the battlesight setting.

I have an M44 that has real issues with any kind of ammo and likes to shoot minute-of-barn groups and sometimes put rounds through the target sideways. No ideas, seems to have a good bore, maybe has throat erosion or muzzle damage. When I get back to it I will have to try recrowning and a chamber cast with cerrosafe. Still goes bang.

The biggest problem I see with other shooters is the way they hold the old military bolt guns. I've found that they are much more controllable if held more parallel to the torso, i.e. a right handed shooter is standing looking 90 degrees to the right of the target, with the rifle pointed right at the target, turns his head to the left and kinda lays the head down onto the stock like you were bad in class. I'm not sure I explained that as well as I could, but I see guys at the range all the time standing straight on to the target like they are staring it down or something.

For the <$100 a MN will cost you, what is the downside?

 

[ECVMSparky]

Armedbear:Now maybe the Mosin stock fits somebody. It must, or they wouldn't have designed it that way. But it doesn't fit me.

They were designed with a shortened stock to accomadate heavy winter clothing.

 

[Harry Paget Flashman]

Nobody Special.

Okay, one final question... what's the rationale in choosing heavy ball vs. light ammo?

My rationale is that I like the "Thump" and at Aim Surplus they sell the 183 grn heavy ball, brass cased, 1950's Bulgarian ammo inside a 300rd sealed galvanized can for $32.95. If you fire your Nagant a lot it ejects easier than with the lacquered steel case ammo.

 

[nobody_special]

Thanks everyone... I'm taking the plunge. I just ordered a boatload of ammo, half Bulgarian heavy ball and half Hungarian steel-cased, and there's a particular M39 that has caught my eye...