This is how guns get banned out here

[Shung]

As you might know, my country (Switzerland) has a long military and gun tradition..

For more than 60 years now, "milita soldiers" are issued a rifle (or a handgun for officers) from the day they are incorporated in our milita army.. just as all the rest of their gear.. And we keep it at home in between each yearly course.

It's a great tradition, and illustrate how in this country, the oldest european democracy, the people is the country, and the people IS the army.

Of course, this has a price.. Suicides happends with issued rifle, and even worse, it happends that some scumbag use his issued gun to commit a crime, most of the time passionate crimes..

Personally, I think this is the price of a free country, and of a freedom.. I'd rather see such sad things happend but know that our country still trust his men to bear arms, instead of treating all of us like children, letting us work on 30 millions dollars fighter jets during our duty, but not trust us with a gun..

And one could always argue that without guns, those suicides would happend using different means (they are not lacking..) , and still blades cause more crimes than guns in Switzerland..


But the lefty movement in Switzerland and in Europe want to get our guns (privately owned, or issued) banned.. And they will use each and every dramatic event to push their agenda..

3 years ago, a 21 years old Swiss soldier (born in Chile) , the day he ended his "recruit school" (kind of "bootcamp") , went home, took is issued SiG550 (Stg90) and a cartridge he had stolen at the range previously, went on a hill, got prone, and shot a 16 years old girl standing 85 yards away, which was awaiting the bus with her friend.. She was killed instantly.

This event has been the main argument (with one young Swiss iraqi who shot inside a restaurant with his Sig550, wounding 2 people) of the socialists and green parties to call for a vote in Switzerland.. Swiss citizens will have to decide (in a year or two) if they want to maintain the issued rifles at home, the main component of our army system (militia) . If such vote will pass, we will also have big restrictions on private ownership, definately banning the buying of automatic weapons and pump actions (we still try to figure whats wrong with those..) , linking the possession of firearms to an activity and licenses (sport, hunting, collection) and all sort of bans/restrictions..

We all hope that the people will be wise again not to vote the end of this Swiss tradition, but it's hard to fight against liars and people using each and every event at their advantage, most of the time lying on statistics and facts..


But the sadest thing is how our society react to these problems..

That young shooter I was talking about earlier had his trial today, and the prosecutor asked for the max penalty.. which were 20 years in jail..

Well, the judges gave him 17 years (we all still try to figure why he was given 3 years as present..) ...

And soon, the (lefitest) media will emphasis on the "real" guilty part in this dramatic shooting.. That "evil" army gun, that was the cause of the whole crime.. totally forgetting that it was an EVIL PERSON, stealing ammo, aiming and pressing the trigger..

This is how things go in Europe.. The "system" is always clement with the people commiting crimes, and make the rest of us, the "honest" people pay the price of their crime, taking OUR freedoms away.. piece after piece..



Sorry for this long post, but i had to let some pressure away....

 

[meytind]

The pro-gun side needs to get organized like the NRA is in America. You'll never convince the majority of the antis but getting the moderates and the fence sitters to side with the pro-gun side is possible.

 

[Shung]

The only downside to this, is that the NRA get his strenght from the 2nd Am. of your constitution, which is CLEAR-

We have our PRO TELL (I am both member of the NRA and Pro tell btw) , but it has not the same weight as the NRA does, because we cannot rely on a thing as strong as your 2nd..

But you are right about trying to convice the fence sitters.. we do it actively.

 

[ArmedBear]

What was the Chilean-born soldier's motivation?

Did he know the victim?

 

[Shung]

No motivation at all... (btw, he was not on duty anymore. Did it as a civilian)

these were his words today :

I don't know what I was thinking and what I intended to do


Well, i know. You intended to KILL an innocent.. (85 yards with a Sig550 on a person, is like shooting a fish in barrel)


By the way he was absolutely stranger to the victim..


here is a french article about this trial, btw (in case you could read french or googletranslate it) :

http://www.lematin.ch/actu/suisse/17-ans-reclusion-tireur-zurich-hoengg-157712

 

[rmodel65]

cant swiss citizen directly enter amendments? maybe propose a law and codify it as a right??

 

[Shung]

The problem rmodel65, is that with the brainwashing left medias have done for now 20 years, we would LOOSE such a vote.. It could have worked, maybe 40 years ago, but not anymore..

At the moment, we can hope to PRESERVE or existing rights, but there is NO chance on getting more rights..

I am affraid that the only way for the people to change their mind about weapons, is the increasing violence in our society.. WHEN they will have understood that things get dangerous, and that the police CAN NOT always be there to save them, they will see weapons and guns in the hand of honest people differently..

At the moment, they think we live in a country safe enough to trust the police only for their safety. (but the violence is increasing quickly, and this may change)

 

[ArmedBear]

By the way he was absolutely stranger to the victim..

Some people are just criminally insane, I guess.

Most murderers kill people they know, and that's one argument against gun control: someone who wants to kill someone in particular, will do it somehow -- just like suicide.

 

[chris in va]

Wow, who would have ever thought that Switzerland, having been armed to the teeth and 'neutral' in conflicts over many years, would cave to pressure from European leftists over something like this.

Curious...is your country part of the EU?

 

[Cosmoline]

Not to be critical of the Swiss, but it seems to me this is the result of tying the RKBA so closely with the militia tradition. Now that Europe is a happy friendly place and the Germans and French are no longer trying to put each others heads on pikes, the justification for the Swiss military has eroded. Put simply, nobody is going to invade with an army anytime soon.

Plus, the Swiss system makes people associate the firearms with military service. Some will no doubt find that a good association, but others are bound to detest the imposition on their time and being forced to run around preparing for threats that no longer exist. They will associate the rifle with outdated militarism.

Plus, you have the enormous pressure from the surrounding European countries to "modernize" gun laws.

 

[Shung]

yeah.. I guess that even a child could understand that this criminal person would have killed somebody, soon or later.. using a car, a knife, or even his hands... But still, for those leftiests, the main blain is on those EVIL GUNS !

 

[Shung]

Very good analysis Cosmoline.. this is exactly what is happening..

Curious...is your country part of the EU?

We are NOT ... we stayed out, and the last vote what in the 90's ..

But we have signed treaties with the EU (Schengen treaty) , for obvious economic reasons.. but still it has consequences on our laws.. Actually, the last change in our gun laws in 2008 (not allowing the private sales without informing the gun police services, which previously was 100% legal) was dicted by the EU and their stand on gunlaws..

 

[oldgold]

Shung;

We share a common similar problem. Anti-gun leftist control the media. Somehow common sense has to prevail in mass media.Too many people still believe what is being reported on TV and in news print.

Leftists subscribe to the saying "Tell a lie often enough and loud enough and it will be perceived as the truth." Even now the current regime is trying to figure out how to shut down Talk Radio and even FOX News.

I wish I knew how to help get the press back on our [real peoples] side. I believe it's where we have to start to protect our freedoms, but then what do I know.....

 

[MagnumDweeb]

It's a shame the Swiss and us here in the U.S. can't ask these antis to raise their hands. Gather them up, and drop them off in North Korea "you don't want people to own guns, here you go, buh-bye."

It'd be some strange things for next Civil War of the modern era to start in Switzerland rather than the U.S.. Not saying it'd be anytime soon but ya got figure with the global economy on the downslide and everything else it's gonn a happen.

It'll be a real shame to see Switzerland lose its proud tradition, got to think the French are somehow involved, well also the English, Germans, and so, and that's close enough to being French at times for the most part nowadays unfortunately. Then we get these fools here in the U.S. who want us to be like Europeans. I'll pass thank you. I like my guts, my guns, and my God, you can keep your physical requirement to be forced to sit down when you relieve yourself while your countries are consumed and invaded by Sharia Law loving immigrants.

 

[Shung]

My grand-grand father died in a mine in massachussets (he did also fight with the American Expeditionary Forces in WWI) 1 month before my grand-grand mother and my grand father would have left europe to join him...

call it badluck ! 1 months later and may have had a 2nd amendment in MY constitution

 

[motorheadjohn]

The NRA does not get it's strength from the 2nd Amendment. It's from the number of members, and the money it takes in.

 

[Shung]

Yeah, i expressed myself badly, but this is due to my bad english..

I wanted to say, that regarding legislation, you have a strong gun tradition and almost all americans now what are their 2nd amendment rights..

Most Swiss people, don't see guns as a right, since it was never written clearly in our constitution.. And since we were for a long time a peacefull and crimeless (or nearly) country, people don't see any real USE in guns.. Hence, it's difficult to get the average citizen join a pro gunrights association.

Things are changing regarding crime, but not fast enough to make people understand WHY desarming honest people is a BAD thing to do.

 

[Brent J]

Whoa!.......you are Swiss and you understand our Constitution better than a great many Americans including quite a group of our politicians!!!?????

 

[Shung]

well, nothing to be proud about.. I mean:

"...the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infriged."

Who cannot understand the meaning of that ? ( and It doesnt really matter where you place the "," seems anyway pretty clear to me..)

If only we had such a LINE in our constitution, the fight would be 10 times easier--

 

[Brent J]

I hate to say it, but sounds as if the left wing liberals have gooten their hand hold on your country now.

 

[makarovnik]

Like I always say; It's about leveling the playing field.

 

[lykoris]

socialist/left governments are anti-gun as they simply do not 'trust' the law abiding citizen.

In Europe it works in stages and invariably through association with a justification to have firearms that they remove as time goes by year by year/slowly but surely. If you went back to 100 years ago everybody had firearms walking the streets of even London.

People used them for defense (primarily), hunting and sports shooting.

But then through misinformation in the media the right to have firearms for defense was taken away as the 'State' will protect you.

So now we are left with hunting/sports shooting and each & every year new laws are brought in to further restrict the type/calibre/look etc. etc. of firearm used in each category. e.g. Republic of Ireland banned centerfire handgun licenses recently. I followed the media coverage and in ALL the papers it was 'No to a US gun culture in Ireland' - 'Glock baby killer guns to be banned'. Sensationalist media coverage to enforce within the minds of the public that with 1800 pistols in the country of 5m people they were turning into the US:

What I fear the most is another European firearms directive given how many socialists there are in the European parliament, so if legislation is proposed by the council of ministers for further restrictions it will be all too easy.

I think we lost the war of words long ago and currently will never reverse public opinion...but after decades of misinformation by the media the average European associates a firearm & the civilian that holds it as a gun nut that should move to Texas. That may sound funny but it is all too true

Given both WWI & WWII were fought on this European continent you would think we would have learned that RKBA and a free democratic state go hand in hand. That is all fantasy though here in Europe as you cannot even obtain a license for a firearm for defense of your own home against burglars.

I'd like to see the reaction in the US if an administration said...we're taking away all of your guns as we believe all you need to do is dial 911.

 

[mnrivrat]

Media has always been part of the problem - owned by those who use it as a social propaganda tool to further their agenda.

Propaganda instead of news is the normal way for them to do business. Using their other, so called entertainment, programs to further broadcast their messages, and influence the masses. They are not the friends of a free society - they are the influence peddlers with strong purpose behind what they do.

The fight for individual freedoms and natural rights is a long and tedious battle that will never end. No matter where in the world it is being fought.

 

[Shung]

That is all fantasy though here in Europe as you cannot even obtain a license for a firearm for defense of your own home against burglars

not all correct actually.. a couple of years ago, a law permitting the possession and use of a firerarm to defend yourself in your home was accepted in Italy.. and I think that Slovakia or another eastern country allows people to carry guns with a permit.-

In Switzerland, carrying is no longer possible, but the use of a firearm to defend your life or the life or your family is allowed in your property.

of course, firing the gun, even if you are 100% right about it, will bring you a ****storm of legal issues..

 

[mlaustin]

Even with a fundamental part of our founding and governing document being explicitly clear regarding gun ownership, look at what is happening in America today...I see the worst of it, since circumstances force me to continue living in California, but let us be an example that even a strong, clear constitution is no guarantee.

If anything, it sounds like you have something of a leg up over a lot of "modern" America - I live with 4 other people, and before meeting me, none had ever shot a gun! We're all 20 years old, and for the two girls I live with, it was the first time they have ever *seen* a gun in real life!

It's not hard to understand why people like that are easily persuaded into voting against gun rights, especially with the way the media portrays firearms in America.

I would think that a strong tradition of private gun ownership and of having every adult male familiar with using a firearm, and teaching their children and wives about them and about safe gun handling and responsibility would be a *huge* asset in rallying people.

On the other hand, thanks for putting into perspective that even though CA is ridiculous, at least I can still own multiple guns and still buy all the ammunition I desire, on the rare occasions it's in stock .