This is the HIGH ROAD isn't it????????

[bogie]

IMHO, the war on drugs and the increasingly stifly legal climate have had a few really nasty affects... The departments get federal money for the war on drugs, and if they confiscate something, they get money there too. Significantly more incentive to confiscate, you know? Also, with the "zero tolerance" and "everything exactly by the book" routines, you get officers who push the book as far as they can... Officer safety is all well and good, but they have pushed it past mall ninja...

They also have "tactical" toys. And since they have them, they wanna use them. A guy down at my friendly neighborhood pub got tanked, went outside, and attempted to drive the three blocks home. Got pulled over (good thing) and when he didn't immediately snap to and climb outta the vehicle for his stupid human tricks (duh... he was drunk - what did they expect?), they tazered him. With witnesses... Guess what - they just got tazers, so hey, they have to use them... Gotta be MUCH easier than just reaching in and dragging a hundred and fifty pounds of soggy induhvidual out to the concrete, right?

IMHO, two groups tend to be the most at fault at "black glove" syndrome... Younger males, and females... We will respect their authoritay... Which leads to us not respecting THEM...

We open our -private- club to local departments for training. On more than one occasion, I've been at the firing line, and had them pull slowly along it in their cruisers, giving us the evil eye... One fellow made sure we noticed him, and then gunned it, spraying gravel. NO style, you know? Fun part was that I was chatting with the fellow who was going to be the instructor for the next weekend... Karma rocks.

Town I live in has a "cruising" day... All the guys who have death machines hidden in their garages get a free pass to come drive a loop.... And they close off some of the streets... Well, at one exit, there are a couple of stop lights right after each other, and they're really not all that synced... So cars are backed up about a half mile (rush hour) and we're just trying to get home... I get to the second one, and there's three donut munchers watching the blocking off one of the streets, and watching the stop light and the line of cars... I call over "Hey, you guys have an unsafe situation back on the highway - maybe you should direct traffic and get some of these cars moving!" (pretty much the exact language), and Ossifer Jane stalks over, in full tactical 5'3" kick yer 6'2" butt mode, and starts grilling me... What's my name. What's my license number. Then the light turns green, people behind me start honking, she realizes what she's doing, and waves me on... Several turns on through the detour, I spot the chief... Heh, heh... Karma rocks.

 

[DRMMR02]

And yet those same donut munchers willingly risk their lives every night while you sleep looking for society's worst in order to stop them from hurting you. Go figure.

 

[SuperNaut]

And yet those same donut munchers willingly risk their lives every night while you sleep looking for society's worst in order to stop them from hurting you.

Traffic cops doing detective work?

 

[DRMMR02]

I wasn't aware that pulling over gangbangers and responding to intruder calls at night was considered detective work.

 

[GTSteve03]

And yet those same donut munchers willingly risk their lives every night while you sleep looking for society's worst in order to stop them from hurting you. Go figure.

I don't live in a neighborhood where nightly LEO patrols happen. If someone is going to break into my home and hurt myself or my friends, I am going to have to defend myself.

The cops will merely show up to do the cleanup and paperwork when it's all over, one way or another.

 

[SuperNaut]

It is a beautiful day and I want to get to the range so I'll keep this brief.

I wasn't aware that pulling over gangbangers and responding to intruder calls at night was considered detective work.

I'll assume you mean pulling over traffic violators and occassionally snagging a gang-banger. BTW the drug dealers here in Utah are white middle-class twenty-somethings, not gang-bangers. But I do appreciate the cops keeping the lower-class in line.

The last time I called 911 about a prowler it took the cops thirty minutes to arrive, and the local office is a mile away. If there had been a problem, their duties would have been janitorial. Also once they showed, they treated me like a criminal. I've got an independent streak to which cops don't respond well. I should practice being more submissive.

 

[DRMMR02]

That attitude is so cute. It's like the whiny liberals complaining about the military, all while that same military protects their right to whine. People come on THR and talk and talk and talk about their ARs and their SHTF plans. OF course the still sit down every night and get on their computer. Why is that computer not stolen? Because we have police keeping bad guys on their toes. So go ahead and keep that attitude. That's your right. But take away the cops and you get New Orleans post Katrina. Take away the cops and you get the LA riots. Then we'll see how smug the anti-LEO types are when their house has been ransacked and their car is on fire.

 

[javacodeman]

Dave_pro2A: I'm well aware of the RCWs. I enforce 'em. I'm simply stating that the reality is that open carry is not widely accepted here. Personally, I'm all for it. I'm simply hoisting the B.S. flag on young expvideo's tall tales of his exploits as a CCW Samurai in Seattle. We don't need youngsters pulling guns when they witness bar fights outside our local establishments.

What is "widely accepted" and what is "need[ed]" doesn't equal what the law says.

Nor does what the law says equal what is "widely accepted" and what is "needed".

I have not read the WA law nor do I intend to as I will not be making it up that way anytime soon; I am merely commenting on your arguments and postings. If (notice I said "if") you (or others) are enforcing what is "widely accepted" instead of what is the law, then your actions are criminal in nature.

java

 

[GTSteve03]

That's your right. But take away the cops and you get New Orleans post Katrina. Take away the cops and you get the LA riots.

Awww how cute. Someone doesn't even know their history.

Had you taken the cops out of New Orleans post Katrina, you'd have had a lot less disarmed civilians forced out of their own homes allowing them to be ransacked by looters.

Had you taken the cops out of LA before beating the crap outta Rodney King, you never would have had the riots in the first place.

Nice try.

 

[DRMMR02]

Had you taken the cops out of LA before beating the crap outta Rodney King, you never would have had the riots in the first place.

So says the liberal media. So it must be true.

 

[White Horseradish]

the warrant was lawfully issued as a "no knock" warrant for officer safety. the woman shot three officers before they returned fire.

So, if this wasn't a no-knock, they would have been less safe?

This has got to be the most ironic statement I have seen this year.

 

[ilbob]

So your answer is anyone that questions the level of force used by LE is obviously a criminal?

Humans, especially criminals, don't like being told what to do. They like to do what they feel like, act how they want, take what they want, and don't like anyone getting in their way.

Cops get in the way. Every crime is someone doing what they want instead of what is best. Cops search for these people. The entire purpose of police is to stop people from doing what they want if it is harmful to others. Civilization is based on a "social contract". "I won't steal from you if you won't steal from me" "I won't kill you if you don't kill me". But some people don't agree to those terms. And it is the job of police to find them, and prevent them from doing whatever they feel like. Because those people doing what they feel like usually involves hurting others.

So it's only natural that police are going to gain a lot of enemies. They stand for what is best for society, not for what individuals feel like doing.

 

[griz]

The entire purpose of police is to stop people from doing what they want if it is harmful to others.

You know DRMMR02, that is kind of ironic considering that the main point of this thread started as a rant against people who disagrred about the usefullness of drug laws. I'm not trying to pick on you here, just pointing out that SOME of the things cops do go beyond protection from others. I am generally an LEO supporter, they have a tough and often thankless job. But I do see "them" as too militarized and the drug laws as counterproductive. But that's for another thread.

 

[DRMMR02]

So your answer is anyone that questions the level of force used by LE is obviously a criminal?

I went and re-read my post, and I can't seem to find me saying that.

 

[White Horseradish]

That attitude is so cute. It's like the whiny liberals complaining about the military, all while that same military protects their right to whine. People come on THR and talk and talk and talk about their ARs and their SHTF plans. OF course the still sit down every night and get on their computer. Why is that computer not stolen? Because we have police keeping bad guys on their toes. So go ahead and keep that attitude. That's your right. But take away the cops and you get New Orleans post Katrina. Take away the cops and you get the LA riots. Then we'll see how smug the anti-LEO types are when their house has been ransacked and their car is on fire.

I think this computer is not stolen because bad guys out these don't know I have it, and if they did, they wouldn't want it because it is a POS.

My car has been stolen from the street in front of my house. The police did not prevent it. The police did not investigate it. They took a statement.

Last week the license plate was stolen from my motorcycle in my driveway. Last month the license plate was stolen from my car in my driveway. The police sure didn't prevent that. They did not even want to record it as a theft.

I was mugged in my own garage by two crackheads (look it up, I've posted it here). Police did not prevent that, police did not investigate it. They were nice enough to take a report, though.

When I lived in Brooklyn, a police officer woke me up at 5AM to tell me my car alarm was bothering the neighbors. What he neglected to mention was that the doors were wide open, the radio has been stolen and the ignition was broken.

Now, you wanna tell me again how the police keep my stuff from being stolen?

 

[DRMMR02]

So you think LESS police or police with MORE restriction is somehow going to help stop that stuff??? That "logic" is almost Bradyish.

 

[javacodeman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spreadfire Arms
the warrant was lawfully issued as a "no knock" warrant for officer safety. the woman shot three officers before they returned fire.

So, if this wasn't a no-knock, they would have been less safe?

This has got to be the most ironic statement I have seen this year.

I think the general belief held here (right or wrong and based on sterotypes of your average 93 year old) is the the 93 year wasn't a drug dealer and that she was merely defending herself from unknown intruders. Then the point is that if the warrent wasn't a "no knock", then the police would have been forced to identify themselves letting the old woman know that she was in the safe hands of LEOs. Then she wouldn't have had to shoot them, and they in turn wouldn't have had to shoot her.

edit: Then if she still shot them after they annouced that they were LEOs, then her death would have never raised anti-LEO threads.

 

[telomerase]

But take away the cops and you get New Orleans post Katrina. Take away the cops and you get the LA riots.

In both of these events the police went after the legal gunowners (old women in New Orleans, store owners in LA) and helped cause looting and riots. In both cases the private owners held down the problem until the situation was safe enough for the heroic authoritays to return with the National Guard.

Nothing wrong with fulltime law enforcement... as long as it's enforcing laws against theft and murder. When it's just random regulations on who is "authorized" to own what, then it's not law in any objective sense.

 

[LandShark]

Then we'll see how smug the anti-LEO types are when their house has been ransacked and their car is on fire.

I still do not equate the healthy skepticism and criticism on this forum as anti-LE.

 

[White Horseradish]

So you think LESS police or police with MORE restriction is somehow going to help stop that stuff??? That "logic" is almost Bradyish.

Where did I say that?

You, on the other hand, have said that the reason we still have any possessions is police presence. I say that is false.

Perhaps they could be more helpful, were they not occupied with WoD, gun buybacks and selling lemonade. (That was a real crime-fighting initiative in our area - cops running a lemonade stand in a bad neighborhood)

 

[Glockfan.45]

I have nothing but respect for those who serve in our nations law enforcement departments. I do however ask that they be held accountable for their actions the same as you and me. Some people who post on here act as if police officers should be given some magical shield of impunity because they were "just doing their job". Police officers are not soldiers, they can question from time to time not blindly follow orders. The 93 year old woman was the perfect case. No knock warrants are a problem. If I just happened to have my AR or AK or any other gun out and playing with it when some overzealous ops in plain clothes come crashing through my door unanounced what do you think I would do? Somebodys wife would end up with a folded flag, and mine would finally get to cash in on the insurance. Does saying that make me a LEO basher? No I suspect it just makes me like most of you guys I suspect. I dont advocte the use of illegal drugs. I do however advocate personal freedom and responsibility. I just happen to be in the school of thought that "the war on drugs" has likely caused more crime than solved. Am I anti government? Depends on who you ask,I support the government this country should have under the constitution. I do not support the government we have been given by a self righteous SCOTUS, arrogant presidents, and greedy congress men and women. Does that make me an anarchist?

 

[DRZinn]

Every crime is someone doing what they want instead of what is best. Cops search for these people. The entire purpose of police is to stop people from doing what they want if it is harmful to others.

If "what is best" under the law were the same as what is not harmful to others, than that would make sense. That's not the case.

 

[SuperNaut]

That attitude is so cute. It's like the whiny liberals complaining about the military, all while that same military protects their right to whine. People come on THR and talk and talk and talk about their ARs and their SHTF plans. OF course the still sit down every night and get on their computer. Why is that computer not stolen? Because we have police keeping bad guys on their toes. So go ahead and keep that attitude. That's your right. But take away the cops and you get New Orleans post Katrina. Take away the cops and you get the LA riots. Then we'll see how smug the anti-LEO types are when their house has been ransacked and their car is on fire.

I'm back from the range. Few things: Just because I have a point of view does not mean I have an attitude problem. Just because I state my point of view does not mean I am whining. I never said that we should "take away the cops" that is an extreme position that is a far easier strawman for you to attack. The fact that you see my comments (IMO pretty benign) as smug tells me this conversation has no future.

 

[XavierBreath]

This thread has degenerated greatly since I read over it yesterday.

I think it is best to close it before it degenerates more.